Helios Horizons Ep.10 - Advancing Cross-Chain Interoperability with Wolfgang Rueckerl

Speaker 1: 0:00

Hello and welcome to another episode of Helios Horizons, and today this is episode 10, with Wolfgang, the co-founder of Ivers, vision and Entity Finance. And so, yeah, without further ado, I'd just like to introduce Wolfgang here, and usually the way we start Wolfgang is just tell us a bit about yourself, how you got into Web3 and all that fun stuff. All that fun stuff, or really yeah, yeah, yeah, because it's so exciting.

Speaker 2: 0:35

All right. So, first of all, thanks for having me. Episode 10. Wonderful, already, 10. I was listening to a few before, but in the car again. Lots of traveling currently. So web 3 also means lots of journeys, lots of events, but, um, that's not how it started. So a little bit about my journey and how I got into the space. It's eight, nine years already and I got to tell it's all Lucien Minkus' fault. So back then we met, heard of Bitcoin, heard of that stuff. Never got into it, never bitten down the rabbit hole back then at least. But uh, yeah, he convinced me somehow. So started reading white papers, researching projects, looking at the tech, the usual stuff and, um, yeah, made it through the wild, wild west in 2017. Ico times made some investments back and forth and, yeah, elrond network back then. Now Multiverse X. They grew, of course, and we saw an opportunity by incorporating in Switzerland as a staking provider, and that's how it all started and from there we grew.

Speaker 1: 2:01

Yeah, not much different than a lot of us from eight years ago and from the elrond group, I think. Yeah, um, we all kind of uh have the same similar story. Uh, I blame sever for for for entering into uh, in into elrond. Um, it's, it's his fault also. Uh, I, I don't know if you listened to our one, but he told a funny story where his liquidation was my purchase. Oh, wow, yeah, yeah, he sold into me on Binance during one of the wipeouts and I got a pretty good price at one point, and he only told me this just the other day. So it's pretty funny, bittersweet, but funny at the same time. So let's move forward. Um, so I, I think what's that?

Speaker 2: 2:53

the only fault.

Speaker 1: 2:54

Yeah, yeah well it was. It was during the covid, uh, the covid wipeout, where I think everyone kind of panicked and and I, I think he, fell victim to that and he was, he's humble enough to uh, to to have to have said so, um, so, yeah, um, but anyways, um, let's get into some of the staking stuff and then we'll get right into the, to the entity stuff. Um, and you know, first thing, first thing, I'm just curious. I want to know, uh, why you changed from a story to Ivers vision and what. What was the reasoning behind that? It's's uh, I, I think it's a better name personally, but I'm just curious.

Speaker 2: 3:27

Thank, you, yeah, uh, well, we also think it's a better name. That's the main reason why we did it, especially because, with, with an iverse vision, we wanted to um rebrand and restructure everything we do because, uh, at that time we were not only the staking provider anymore, we have four eyes, yeah. So it's um instruction, it's incubating. Uh, incubating is a big part of of our journey. In the last couple years we have uh supported lots of projects, many of them on multiversex. Many of them made it to the launchpad, maya Launchpad and now XLaunchpad, and I also stand for investing in those projects.

Speaker 2: 4:13

So, everything we said since day one as a staking provider, it was always our goal to reinvest our rewards into the ecosystem and not only go on vacation. So we have less vacation, more investments, which ended up in our own project. But the other reason actually was we did it more or less at the same time as elrond network made their change to Multiverse X. So, yes, we followed with Istari. Maybe some know from Lord of the Rings, the books and everything, that there was not only Elrond, but there was also the Istari and, yeah, those sorcerers. They did some magic stuff and we thought it's a cool name for us as well. But yeah, it was. It was more popular then, so we thought, before we have to spend all our staking rewards on any fights in front of courts, we better rename and make some good stuff out of it. So that's why there is no more Istari Vision, but now Ivers Vision with a new branding. That's the whole reason.

Speaker 1: 5:28

Makes total sense and yeah, I actually just always forget about the magic people who've made the Astari stuff from Lord of the Rings. So, yeah, I mean, makes total sense to steer away from any of that trouble that could happen. I think the way you guys are going, that would put you into the eyes of that camp sooner than later. So, yeah, a good move, for sure. But you touched on some really important points, and it's about running a staking provider, the importance of stake, and I think a lot of us know all of that sort of stuff. But what I want to talk about is the importance of staking providers supporting the ecosystem a little bit more and maybe then segue in into entity and and how that applies to entity. You mentioned you've incubated a lot of projects.

Speaker 1: 6:16

Um, I think helios kind of has to change to helios vision now too, or something like that, because we're not just helios, we're just not a staking agency either our staking provider either. Right, um, we, we, we, we do a lot, um, out there in the ecosystem. You know we've, you know we've gotten involved with some, some projects as well, I think some of the similar ones as you. And so, yeah, maybe, uh, maybe being just a staking provider is a bit redundant or not redundant, just kind of not exactly what we are. So I might not do anything about it, or I might, who knows. But but anyways, back back, back back to my point is is maybe, maybe walk through us the importance of, of, of validators, especially with phase four now, and and the multi-key stuff and how cheap it is to actually run, why providers who give back to the ecosystem are so important and why people should look to stake with those providers.

Speaker 2: 7:18

Yeah, absolutely. First of all, for those who know how it all started on MultiverseX back then Elrond and the different phases we had now being in phase four, I always prefer to keep things simple and we always aim for the newcomers in the space and always had a big focus on education and all the content we've provided is to educate people, to make their life easy in Web3, to have easy onboarding and to drive adoption. So I'll try to give a very, very simple answer. Yes, there were lots of features now coming in the last weeks and months. Phase 4 was crucial and yes, it's cheaper now with multisig and it's all great and easy.

Speaker 2: 8:12

On Multiverse X, I have to admit We've seen that in other proof-of-stake networks. Multiverse X is not the only chain we're validating, but it's super easy here and it became way more fair in my opinion. But if you look at the explorer and if you look at the big staking providers, there have been lots of changes. Now also with the cap to max of 50 nodes, with the top up the threshold, you need to have to stay eligible not to get your node into auction or even lose it. So I think some big players they lost, unfortunately a lot of nodes. Sorry for them. Don't know the exact reasons why lots of e-gold was moved out of of their nodes, but good for the smaller ones, good for for the decentralization. For sure there is enough place for newcomers to join. I've seen there's also a new video now on YouTube from Multiverse X Staking Guide for Phase 4, so check this out. Definitely worth watching for the newcomers.

Speaker 2: 9:22

But, yeah, basic with with staking it's. It's a crucial component of many blockchain ecosystems because it helps secure the network. That's the most important part, and by staking the tokens, the users can participate in the consensus process, and that involves validating transactions. That's, in essence, what we do. Yeah, we provide the server infrastructure, we run the latest software, we validate the data on the blockchain and the users that hold the token and delegate it to a staking provider. They are part of it, they get rewards from it and the staking provider also has a fee and, uh, yeah, is hopefully able to pay his notes.

Speaker 1: 10:03

Yeah, otherwise there's no validating. But yeah, I agree with a lot of what you say about phase four. I think it's starting to level the playing field and what I've also noticed too is is there's, you know, columbia staking Tortuga. A lot of people out there are running awareness campaigns and letting people out there to become more educated on where they should put their stake, and you're actually seeing also validators being called out for nefarious behavior, which has recently happened contract parameters, but we're calling out people who are trying to cause trouble and making sure that the delegators within the ecosystem, their best interests are at heart, and I think that's a great thing.

Speaker 1: 11:14

Phase four has definitely opened this door and there's things out there that are happening, but we're catching on to them really quickly and it's improving day on day. Um, with some of the smaller providers getting a lot, of, a lot, of, a lot of the eagle, which is what we want essentially um for for more decentralization, more, more distribution and um, better security. I think the the coefficient went from from. Our coefficient is now six or seven people could take down the network. It used to be four entities at one point, I believe so. So now we're we're not talking to each other.

Speaker 2: 11:52

I know, I know.

Speaker 1: 11:52

But it's, it's still a coefficient, that that, that that is there, but yeah, yeah it's, it won't happen, um, but the point is that it's still. It's still something that's looked at and it's improving, so that's a good sign to me, yeah, okay, so let's move on, and we'll move on into the Entity stuff, and this is something basically what Ivers Vision has done, and one of the big things that you have done as well, wolfgang. Is created an Entity and created this secondary business that aims to do some really fantastic things. The light paper just came out today. I've been fortunate enough to have read it and I like what I'm reading. So let's kind of start back at the beginning of you know why did I verse? And you know, um, christian is the other co-founder, I believe Correct. Is that right?

Speaker 1: 12:51

Yeah, right, and so why did you guys decide to then use a lot of the the earned rewards to create an entity and bring in? You know, I, uh, you've hired people in. You have a really good team, solid team together, and now what you're doing is going to bring some serious, potentially serious liquidity and cross-chain aggregation essentially into MVX and to blockchain as a whole. So why did you start Entity? It will be a good place to start yeah, thank you.

Speaker 2: 13:26

Um, first of all. Um, entity maybe some don't like the name, but we, we actually thought it's the entity that's going to be our main business we want to focus on. It should be the growth engine first of all for multiverse x. That's how we started two and a half years ago. Um, most maybe don't even know that back then, we, we started building um in early 2022 and, uh, yeah, we faced the bear market. Uh was dramatic as well for us. Uh, not enough staking rewards, but we were heads down building and, yes, we've, we were, we were and we are lucky having an amazing team pushing hardcore. So, um, our approach really was to drive adoption, inspired by the guys from multiverse x. So kudos to them. Uh, what they've been built in the last couple years and we want to be part of that. But, um, we believe in cross-chain. So, in all the, in all the projects, we've invested, most of the projects we've incubated.

Speaker 2: 14:38

At iverse, we always had a focus on DeFi decentralized finance. These are always a main topic in every discussion. I think we've gained lots of know-how. Our team has lots of know-how, experience in this market and that's where we can help also other projects, and we've also made cross-chain investments. So, not only the projects building on MultiPrizeX in the DeFi space, but also to go hand in hand with other protocols. And yeah, entity as a cross-chain growth engine was built to welcome other ecosystems and combine things. So we have been part of the Multiverse X bridge to Ethereum. There's Binance Smart Chain as well. There is Polygon. We run relay infrastructure. There's more coming.

Speaker 2: 15:41

I think most of the people have seen the email from Lucian that was sent, yeah, published. Let's put it like this. These things are in discussion since more than a year and the team is working on this for a very long time, and I think we can see now coincidence maybe? That in parallel we are doing the same thing. We are also talking to Cosmos Ecosystems, you guys. Helios is also in Injective Protocol. I'm actually staking my Injective with you guys. So, yeah, there are many things to do, I think. And all these different ecosystems, they have their pros and cons and we are focusing on the positive part. Especially in Cosmos, we have seen lots of things that can be improved and we've built solutions for it. So the essence of of entity as a cross-chain growth engine is to solve fragmented liquidity, poor user experience and lack of efficiency, and that's why we've built the whole platform with the different modules, and there's more to come.

Speaker 1: 16:54

For sure. So this is all really exciting stuff, and I think one thing you missed out is that entity and it's in your light papers is that you'll be MVX-centric but cross-chain growth right. I believe I've read it and it's very much so about MVX centric but cross chain growth right. I believe I've read it and it's very, very, very, very much so about MVX, but also about launching on Cosmos, but also using the entangle omni chain liquidity protocol, right.

Speaker 1: 17:25

So I think what's really important and what people need to understand Sometimes. I remember talking cross chain. Before it was cool to talk about cross-chain and when I went over to Injective I kind of got labeled as this black sheep and I kept saying to people I'm not leaving Multiverse X or Elrond at the time, I'm just adding Injective and, if anything, this is going to create more opportunity for multiverse X. But back then, you know, the maxi mentality was really strong and that was across every chain. But I think now the narrative is just interoperability, cross chain and the main reason being that this fragmented liquidity which you know, if we take things like um, optimism and all that sort of stuff, like they're all this great, there are these great, there are these great protocols, but they're just eating liquidity and actually just making things harder.

Speaker 1: 18:23

So, so, so what? What what you guys are doing is is exactly what needs to happen, and though you know, right right now you're in the iibc space race campaign, I believe, right, uh, yeah, yeah, and so which? Which is cosmos? So what I am curious to know being being from injective, and I know you guys are a partner of the injective. Uh, technical, right on the technical, you guys are in contact with them. I believe as well. I think that's what I read. I have to get up early tomorrow for a call. Yeah, great.

Speaker 2: 18:54

Awesome.

Speaker 1: 18:54

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's awesome as well. So I guess what I want to know is why Cosmos and how you feel what you feel about Cosmos? I mean, let's give Cos a minute, um, because, uh, helios horizon isn't as, as we've gone over in the past, isn't just about mvx, it's about bridging the gaps between between teams and and I think cosmos, injective osmosis, all that stuff, which, which is all in in your guys's light paper is, is something that's exactly what what we need and exactly what's going to improve both ecosystems definitely very good question.

Speaker 2: 19:35

So, first of all, for all the, for all the multiverse x maxis and fans out there, uh, we're not leaving, so we still have the same thing. I don't want to be the black sheep. No, ivers vision entity. We are not leaving multiverse x, definitely not. Multiverse x is our home base. We are a large staking provider here. We have started our building journey on multiverse x. We've learned a lot here. We've made many friends, we have many investments here, so definitely we're not leaving. We just want to bring the positive parts of Multiverse X also to other ecosystems and we want to combine the positive parts of other ecosystems also with the good stuff from Multiverse X. We know that we have amazing tech here. We have a vibrant community, lots of fans and much more to come.

Speaker 2: 20:30

When we see the announcements with sovereign chains etc. What's coming there, um, lots of hype around it and for us it's it's not only cosmos as it is. We are specifically looking at, uh, several chains, injective, one of. We've just spun up Artway nodes yesterday, I think, and more to come. You mentioned Entangle, an amazing project. Kudos to what they've delivered in the last one and a half years. We are with them since summer 22, working with them and, yeah, they write history in in what they've done. So really, really amazing to to be part of this journey and there will be more coming in the future. So to everyone, listening or later on, hearing this podcast.

Speaker 2: 21:31

It's about focusing on the positive part. Nothing's perfect. Nowhere the grass is not greener on the other side, and Helios being staking provider on Multiverse X and Injective Ivers Vision being staking provider on different chains does not mean we're leaving. We're not the black sheeps. We are just as every investor, for example, does. We are not all in in one coin. We try to do things that we're good at and we're good at providing infrastructure. We have 100 uptime with our infrastructures. We're good at that. We have an amazing team running this infrastructure. We can support the ecosystem and the projects that need our infrastructure and, of course, we do earn money with it. And bear markets can be long, can be hard, it's tough and we all want to survive, and with those rewards we can, on the other hand, build cool stuff. So back to entity um. For the cross-chain approach, we actually thought, especially from a user perspective. We have to say multi-chain is that and cross-chain is the future. So we wanted to build the first fully regulated, comprehensive cross-chain interoperability solution. So that's a big slogan. Too big, too big. Rebrand, rebrand. Simply explained, we have it in our deck as well and it will be available to the public very soon.

Speaker 2: 23:06

The thing is a user that downloads Xportal. He's in the ecosystem of Multiverse X. Yes, he's able to check his wallets beyond the X launchpad, use X exchange and other applications Ash swap Hats, home, etc. But what if he wants to join the launchpad in another ecosystem? It's not possible. If he wants to go to Injective Protocol and use any application there, it's not possible. If he wants to go to injective protocol and use any application there, it does not work. So you have to have different wallets, different browser extensions, you have to have different accounts in these ecosystems and you have to hop from application to application, move your funds via bridges and there are security risks. It's fragmented liquidity, it costs a lot of fees and we wanted to solve exactly that by providing one seamlessly integrated platform that integrates the different ecosystems in one cohesive platform that integrates the different ecosystems in one cohesive platform. That's what NTT is. You can simply connect with your email with your MultiverseX wallet be it Xportal or WebWallet, whatever Kepler wallet, any other wallet extensions and you have access to the whole platform.

Speaker 1: 24:25

That's great. So I've read again I'm well read on this light paper. By the way, you talk about chain abstraction, right, and so another really big thing in the industry now is the term abstraction right, and I think a lot of people don't really know what that is. And I think a lot of people don't really know what that is and I'll just quickly explain it before you can get into how that's going to work. Everyone knows how to send an email by logging into Gmail, logging into Outlook or whatever. This is Web 2, right, but not many people know how to set up an email client by going into the back end, setting up SMT records, setting up DNS records, etc. The reason for this and it wasn't always this way is because someone really smart at Gmail and Outlook said well, why don't we just automate this for them, and no one will even know how it works.

Speaker 1: 25:24

So right now, for example, in crypto a lot chains, uh and and a lot of wallets you have to save the seed phrase. You got to save your keys. You know a lot of this is changing. When you log into places, it can be cumbersome. The ux just isn't there.

Speaker 1: 25:43

Um, we do have, you know, the google logins now and you know all that sort of stuff, um, but what abstraction basically is is using a product without knowing how you're using it. That's the best way to put it, and that's the next big step for blockchain, alongside this cross-chain engine growth stuff. And so when I read the light paper and I saw, saw, you know, chain abstraction this you know in my head I was like, oh, we need to talk about this because this, too, is a very, very important theme coming into this uh, next phase of blockchain, and those that don't get on board with with uh, with chain abstraction and and uh, just abstraction in general, um, are going to fall behind and uh will not be adopted by by the new wave of users who won't know they're using crypto or blockchain. I should say so, um, yeah, could you just explain a bit more about your uh?

Speaker 2: 26:44

I can even give you an example, and not not from us, but um, just look at Knights of Katina. They've done it exactly like that People that are downloading the game from Epic Game Store, play Store, apple Store. They download a game and the wallet is created in the background and they play the game, they level up, they get NFTs, sfts, tokens, and at some point they realize, oh yeah, a marketplace, I can sell my stuff. And then they find out, oh cool, I got cgo, let's check the price. And then they sell. That's, that's how it works. They simply earn money by playing a game without even knowing that there's a wallet in the yeah and and and we also know that gaming is actually becoming one of the.

Speaker 1: 27:35

Mvx is actually one of the one-stop shops for gaming at the moment. I believe just recently, I think, a coin telegraph or someone reported on it, uh, just recently, um, saying that, yeah, mvx is leading the way with with gaming developers and people are choosing MVX and for one of these reasons is, yeah, knights of Katina a perfect example, right, but yeah, so how does Entity then take this concept and do chain abstraction right, like that's login abstraction, that's account abstraction, but chain abstraction is to me something a step further. So can you maybe?

Speaker 2: 28:13

explain that well, I could. No, I will. There are a few key components of chain abstraction. So, um, easy to google for everyone or ask chatGPT, yeah, so I don't want to take too much time. I think that's also part of the research everyone should do, but I'll touch on it. So, first of all, it's about a unified interface. That's what we're building with the entity platform.

Speaker 2: 28:45

The next big thing is the interoperability between different blockchain networks. Then, and that's a very complicated part simplified development. Okay, we can say we are all speaking the same language, we are coming with Rust, we have the same smart contracts, so we focus on blockchains that are all in Rust and it's easy to adapt and port things over. Sounds like it. It's not easy, believe me. Next thing cross-chain functionality. Chain abstraction facilitates cross-chain functionality by enabling assets, data and transactions to move freely between different blockchain networks.

Speaker 2: 29:30

So we all think about bridges, and that's exactly the thing. We have a module, a bridge aggregator. We don't want to run our own bridge. I think there are many, many bridges Multipersecs just mentioned. There are more things coming, so let's better focus on the benefits and that's the user-centric part. What we want to achieve Efficiency. We want to reduce the complexity and the time time is money required to develop and deploy blockchain applications across multiple networks. Then, especially for the user flexibility we have to allow users and developers to choose the best blockchain for their needs. So if there is a project coming to iber's vision and asks for support, wants to get incubated, we can support them for a certain period of time and bring them to a level where we can say, okay, now you're ready, let's go go. Entity launchpad, cross-chain launchpad when do you want to launch? Do you want to launch on different chains? Just on one chain? Do you even care? Do we have to talk about the underlying protocol in two years from now? I don't know. That's a question we have to ask ourselves.

Speaker 1: 30:48

It's a really good point, and I guess that's basically when you kind of realize the importance of cross-chain interoperability, right? Is you put all your eggs in one basket, you trip and fall Guess what, right? So yeah, I think it's a great approach, especially for your incubation side. I think it's a great approach especially for, you know, for your incubation side is, you know they reach out and say look, you know, we don't want to be chain agnostic, can you facilitate that? And as soon as you say no door closes, they move on to someone who will. At this point, right, and that's that's kind of just, just just where it is. So let's just talk about multiverse X. So why is, why is interoperability now really important for multiverse X? And why are these bridges so important that we can't really ignore things like entity? There's, you know, hadam and Sol, and then you know there's the Axler, entangle, layer Zero stuff as well. So why is it so?

Speaker 2: 31:53

vital for multiverse X right now? That's a very good question, kevin. Um, just my two cents. I have no idea what the multiverse x perspective is, in detail at least. Um, we always hear that the best technology will stay and will win the race, but especially in DeFi, we all know it's about prices, it's about volume, it's about low fees, and if you have low fees because you have to compete with big players, you need need lots of volume, you need TVL. It's about the liquidity and I think we can only. Multipersecs is only able to distribute their amazing technology if they can convince other ecosystems by opening their door and porting over their liquidity, providing them a stable protocol, a stable ecosystem and network where they can build their applications easily and scale them to their needs.

Speaker 1: 33:02

Actually, because they can't right now, or not to a certain extent in other ecosystems, and that why um adoption is probably slowing down a little bit yeah, or so, liquidity being, you know, the key there, right, and and um, and this, these, these type of things, um, you know, I'm really excited for what soul is going to bring. I'm really excited for what entity is going to bring, you know and know, and some other projects out there that are focusing on liquidity. My only fear sometimes is, you know, if there's no new liquidity coming in, then how much more can we just keep diluting the liquidity we have? Right, and you know I'm not going to name names or anything, but sometimes, you know, I use Arda for my charts, sometimes eCompass, but I just like the way Arda is kind of displayed. It's really easy for me to see things real quick.

Speaker 1: 34:11

A new coin or a new this comes out and then, uh, all of a sudden liquidity starts bouncing around the ecosystem like wildfire and projects that are good and real and doing something are getting slammed, and this is because there's no new users coming in. Everyone's chasing money and and and it's exactly like you said, like tech. Tech is. Is is number one in my book and is in most of, uh, of the nerds out there, but the fact is there are people that are out there to make money and right now there needs to be a shift from making money to what actually brings value, and I think it's coming. A lot of people are.

Speaker 1: 34:49

There's going to be this crazy shift sometime in the next maybe two years where people realize you know no more of these coins that don't do anything, and a shift towards quality is going to become huge.

Speaker 1: 35:01

We've seen it in other cycles where, you know, during bear markets, people just buy anything that has no real utility or really anything backed behind it, um, and then, uh, when the bull actually starts to pull in, you know, the all the big players that actually have something start to blow up and that's when the spart money comes back right and so, um. So right now, while our liquidity is quite, uh, is quite diluted, we do have a lot of stuff going on to bring more in, and it's people like you Hadam a few other projects out there that are actually doing something about it, and this bridge aggregator and that sort of stuff truly excites me, because that's how we're going to bring new users in. Also, through various different gaming projects, like you mentioned, where people will start using an actual product without knowing they're even using MVvx or any change for, for that matter, um, and it's just so vital, right? Uh like, liquidity equals users, users equals adoption, adoption equals higher tvl end of story exactly that.

Speaker 2: 36:29

Yeah, that is true. We had some very interesting conversations last week at the crypto valley conference in switzerland and we also had the team at proof of talk. Many events lately. So just to to echo that, in in switzerland, of course, lots of institutional players banks, market makers, exchanges, yeah just to name a few crock and institutional by bit. They were all there and very, very interesting announcements. Uh, here as well. Just an example the canton of Zug, crypto Valley, zug. That's where we are based.

Speaker 2: 37:13

They are spending 40 million now in development at the universities, for example, in startups in the blockchain space. Startups are able to apply. It's a simple process. They support you. They made a great presentation here. They support you. They made a great presentation here. So there is money and there is a huge interest from regulators, from big institutions, to get the technology and, of course, at the end, nobody will realize. Okay, we are on blockchain XYZ because the user is using an application. That's it and the underlying technology. Who cares at the end? Yeah, we just have to be on the right yeah, exactly, with the right smile, exactly people always ask me what, what is it you do?

Speaker 1: 38:02

and I'll just say short answer, a long answer, and, and, uh, and, and, and usually most people like just dumb it down. I'm like have you ever used, have you ever used, an ATM? They're like, yes, I'm like I'm the one who makes sure that that transaction goes through and I take a little bit of your fees. End of story, right. But they don't understand any of what's actually going on behind an ATM either. But they do understand how to put their card in a machine, right.

Speaker 1: 38:30

So, dumbing it down to that level, and even then, sometimes I used to use the poker one where I was like, okay, we all have pocket aces and we're all trying to prove that we have pocket aces. And when we all prove that we have pocket aces, then we can have a bigger pot, you know. And it's just like, no, that doesn't that pot. You know. And it's just like, no, that doesn't, that doesn't work, like the validation thing, right. So I? I just say yeah, we're, we're the middlemen. But nowadays I kind of say, um, no, I. I kind of just say I'm well, helios, staking wing of things is we're just in the bandwidth business, really, right. So we have infrastructure, we have everything we need and we sell our bandwidth and our resources or use our resources in order to support blockchain. So our true product is really just bandwidth. As far as I'm concerned, in terms of the staking side of the business, Very good example.

Speaker 2: 39:28

I think it's our common goal that we all try to grow the pie. Yeah, that's that's the thing. It's not just about having a fair share for everyone, but growing it.

Speaker 1: 39:40

That's our yeah okay, so let's just move forward there, um, and let's just talk about the importance of of some real life events. You mentioned some, some stuff, that that that you've gone to I, I, I know you go to quite a a few of them and and and are out there, so I'd just like to to to hear some stuff on that. I know Christian and Radovan did I say his name, right?

Speaker 3: 40:05

Radovan.

Speaker 1: 40:05

Yeah, yeah, we're at ConsenSys, consensus, yeah, and then, uh, somewhere at at crypto valley uh, you've been to some as well um, so maybe let's just talk about the importance of real life events and events and and how you know, taking our robot selves away from our computer for a little while, is uh, is, is is super important. Um, after that we'll do some audience, q&a and then, yeah, but anyways, let's talk about some real life events here for a bit.

Speaker 2: 40:38

Absolutely Real life events are an amazing opportunity to meet new people and to get to understand their perspective on things, because I think always being heads down building, always staying in our own bubble, is not healthy. We have to look at the markets. We have to look at what others are doing. It's not only the research, uh, that we do on on projects, products and and things that are going on in our space. It's always good to connect with people and, um, yeah, to get to know what what they are actually doing, what direction they are going and, especially, uh, the. The advantage here in in switzerland, with those big players and their interest is is very, very good. So we've we've seen um token 2049 was an amazing event despite the floods, so we've been evacuated from a hotel, but still was a great week there. We've met amazing people, multiverse X people, very cool side events and from from there, I can I can only tell everyone listening go to these events, spend the money, especially when it's close to your hometown. Go to these events, go to local blockchain meetups and simply spread the word. It's definitely worth it. From there, businesses are started. Actually, you can find partners, you can find developers, nerds, you can talk about problems and how to solve them. So do this.

Speaker 2: 42:22

Next to Token 2049, we have, of course, consensus in Austin and Crypto Valley Conference here in Switzerland, in the heart of Europe, and Paris Proof of Talk. As a next one, we'll go to ETH CC and after summer there will be Proof of talk in Asia. In Singapore, cosmosverse is upcoming as well, and a few smaller ones. I think there is BTC in Prague as well. So not too far for us Europeans to meet those people and not only to listen to the panels, where most of the projects and institutions are discussing different topics, also keynote speeches, but I always prefer side events to meet people.

Speaker 2: 43:17

Um, things that they are telling in in panels or in keynotes is stuff that I can also research on the internet, but talking to people is very important for me, at least for me, um, yeah to to understand what, what they are doing and, um, find ways to collaborate with them. Because, as I said before, we want to grow the pie, we want to drive adoption, we want to build tools that are supporting this approach, and we can't do it on our own. We need partners, we need to make friends out there, we need to have tech collaborations and talk about the stuff that we are doing and, yeah, we need fans out there that, at the end of the day, become users and, for the projects, clients, because that's how it all works at the end of the day.

Speaker 1: 44:10

Yeah, I'm in complete agreement with you on the going to talk to people aspect of things going to shake hands, talk to the users, talk to the fanboys, talk to the nerds, talk to the developers or fangirls, um, and you know they're there, um, but but, like you know, just kind of get it, get out there and and talk to people. The. The actual biggest wealth any blockchain has, or any company for that matter, is the people, and if you forget about your people and forget about your community and just keep going to talk after talk after talk and ignoring the people who are there, then you're not really, uh, achieving anything. And and, um, the way you put it, yeah, it's. You can just research all that on the internet and and those are probably broadcasts where you can just watch them if you want to, right? So so why waste your time? You know there's some keynotes I'll go to. Like I mean, I used to go to web summit a lot, um, and yeah, like I saw elon talk about hyperloop, uh, I saw that guy, um, american, uh, al gore talk once all about his inconvenient truth, and you know those are a bit different, right, like, I mean, there's like people you want to go see bit different, right, like I mean, there's like people you want to go see, just to be like, wow, you can feel the energy. But yeah, for the most part, you know, it's like okay, great, yeah, I've heard you guys talk like 20 times now and it's like the same thing. So let's go find someone you haven't talked to, so, or locals, um, which is a another really good thing um, and uh, yeah, and yeah, thanks for saying that. That's really important. I think people understand that it's all about connecting with people and not so much about going to stare at people talk. Yeah, okay, so let's just move forward and I think we'll move into audience Q&A.

Speaker 1: 46:04

We stay pretty tight on time here on this basis. So if there's anyone who has any questions, please leave a question on the post, the pinned tweet, and if anyone wants to come up and ask a question as usual, you are free to do so. Usually we get one or two people who come on and ask a question as usual. You are free to do so. Um, usually we get one or two people who come on and want to say a word and if not, I'll force lucas or john to uh, ask you a question, um, so we'll just uh I I know, john, uh can actually probably talk about token 49. Lucas might be able to. Uh might be able to to join. I know he's been traveling, so he's just back from Paris, from that ex-alliance stuff and proof of talk as well, so maybe he's requested to speak. So let's get Lucas on board to ask you a question or maybe say a few words, while maybe some other questions might trickle in.

Speaker 4: 47:04

No, I'm here to ask you a question, or maybe say a few words, while maybe some other questions might trickle in. No, I'm here to ask questions. I hate talking about what I do. I'm super curious. First of all, thank you for the conversation. Really really cool to listen to two MVX OGs and now Cosmos enthusiasts talk about all of this cool stuff. Wolfgang, I wanted to ask you, like you've seen so many things and you've invested in quite a few projects, right, like, what do you see as sort of the next generation of products that need to be built or that are being built? What is sort of? You know, if you had to hone in on one sector or one, you know this killer app or something. Where do you think that will come in or comes in in the current Web3 environment? What's the most needed product or what have you seen that is really being pushed?

Speaker 3: 48:02

I think you're on mute, Wolfgang.

Speaker 2: 48:07

I am yes, true. What did I miss? Sorry, I was checking for questions. I didn't hear anything. Maybe the connection here in the hotel is not the best.

Speaker 4: 48:18

I'm sorry, guys, you can hear me though, hello, Maybe you just can't hear me. Maybe it's just a bug. I can, sorry guys. You can hear me though, hello, maybe you just can't hear me. Maybe it's just a bug.

Speaker 3: 48:26

I can hear you. I can hear you. I'll like paraphrase Luke's question.

Speaker 2: 48:31

He was just saying that like you have a lot of experience across, like watching a lot of different projects, and maybe is there anything in particular, any narrative, any type of project that kind of excites you over the next period of time? Yeah, that's a good question. Uh, it seems I can not hear lucas, but you, that's a good thing. Thank you very much for jumping in. Um, yeah, kevin already mentioned it's Sol. Actually, that's one of the biggest projects for this year. Let's see if they're going to launch this year or beginning of next year.

Speaker 2: 49:13

One of the main reasons is we, of course, know the team from HATOM. We know Rother Labs. There is also a reason why we do have now also a tech collaboration with them Amazing builders. Everything we've seen from scratch, really from where Sol started to where they are today, is simply amazing. I think they will fill a niche in the market. They are building something that is very much needed. And, um, yeah, finally, also bold statements. So really looking forward to their announcements in the next couple weeks weeks. Yeah, of course, can't disclose too many things. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll just quiet.

Speaker 1: 50:09

I'll echo that. Obviously, I was saying Seoul for a reason too, and Hideo has a very good working relationship with Hadam and open lines of communication and what I've seen both in public and in the background. I'm extremely excited for Seoul as well and proud to hopefully be part of it wherever I can, and so they are definitely going to fill a huge, huge hole and they're amazing builders with such a drive. Like every time I message the guy, he's there, and I message people at weird hours and he's there and he's like well, we can talk if you want. It's cool, we're all working, you know, or we're not taking holidays, you know? Oh, it's Christmas, oh, it is, you know.

Speaker 1: 50:55

So these guys are hardcore and the industry has really taken a notice to them and I think they've been going to a lot and the industry has really taken a notice to them and, um, and, and I think they've been going to a lot of these, these conferences, and getting invites to meet some pretty big heavy hitters, um, uh, and, and just just being part of, of of that crew and getting the acknowledgement is is huge, and now they have this, this product, coming. So, yeah, I can't wait either and um, I also, um, I'm very excited for entity as well.

Speaker 2: 51:25

Um little plug there for you again oh, you think I should mention my own project.

Speaker 1: 51:34

Yeah, well, you know what I was like? Is he gonna do it? You know um, but yeah, um, okay. So, uh, I don't know if there's anyone else. Lucas, maybe you can try talking again, see. If yeah, let's try again Lucas. Hello.

Speaker 2: 51:48

Please, in case you speak, you're not muted, but I can't hear you. I'm so sorry.

Speaker 4: 51:54

I'm going to leave the space. I'll be back.

Speaker 1: 51:57

Yeah, that's weird. This is weird. This is very funny. Spaces is weird. We've been rugged a few times. It didn't record once. But, pro tip, if it didn't record, you can get it from your archive in 24 hours. So you can get it. You just have to request an archive from Twitter and then it'll give it to you and they keep it for 30 days. So if you ever need it for any reason and it didn't record, it's still there for 30 days good stuff.

Speaker 2: 52:27

Yeah, let's try again. Lucas, I think we rejoined um. That sometimes helps. If not, maybe you can help me out again.

Speaker 4: 52:35

Yeah check, check, hello, nine hello can you hear him?

Speaker 1: 52:43

no, no, I don't, I don't think, I, I don't think this is gonna be a connection today okay, well, yeah yeah well, what lucas said was he thinks he's the most awesome person in the world and his product is gonna be the best ever and he, of course, talked about only himself.

Speaker 4: 53:02

Um, I mean honestly, if we're talking about product. I was about to ask no his question we're talking about product.

Speaker 3: 53:09

We should he just wants you to say like what the most awesome thing about?

Speaker 2: 53:13

I agree I agree, lucas.

Speaker 4: 53:16

I mean the, the, if the product is collabathon, and everything that we can do together to improve the space and, you know, make the pie bigger, which is something you guys talked about.

Speaker 2: 53:25

Do we have anything in the comments? This is great.

Speaker 3: 53:30

I can't hear you.

Speaker 4: 53:31

Lucas, complete chaos erupted. I'll be back. Bye-bye guys Thanks.

Speaker 1: 53:39

Yeah, there are.

Speaker 2: 53:40

Send me a voice message and I'll play it and then I can answer. Yeah, no, it's okay he was actually just saying that.

Speaker 1: 53:46

No, I like I was making fun of him. Obviously. He wasn't saying that. He was just saying, um, he was plugging the collabathon and uh, what helios is doing, um, uh, to to bring people together and bring chains together at more of a events level. Right, but yeah, so, but we'll, we can talk about that another time. We're at like two minutes to go and yeah, I don't know if there's anybody else who wants to try speaking. Apparently speaking isn't working that well. And do we have another question? I saw another comment just show up there. Let's see if we have anything.

Speaker 3: 54:27

It was just Lucas saying oh no.

Speaker 1: 54:29

Oh, okay.

Speaker 3: 54:32

Oh no, it is. Yeah, no, I was saying, like things you were touching on earlier, probably not really enough time to go through them, but like things like Entangler, find out a little bit more about it and and how it's going to be or how they it's going to help, like things in terms of bridging and what makes it unique, but probably isn't enough time to go through that. So it's been like exciting listening to you, honestly, like really excited to see what entity you're going to bring um over the next few months. Going to be keeping a close eye on it and seeing what happens.

Speaker 2: 55:03

Thank you. Thank you Maybe as a closer. We haven't touched on Collabiton. I really love the approach Kevin and team. Same for X Alliance. Definitely talk more about that. I think Collabiton, as the name probably says, collaborate work on stuff together. As the name probably says, collaborate work on stuff together. Ask in your space, in your bubble, for help. I've been always telling my team and and friends as well, if you simply ask for help, for me at least, I've never received a no. It always depends on how you ask, how pushy you are I can agree.

Speaker 1: 55:41

I can. I'm a witness to that.

Speaker 2: 55:47

People are normally helpful and I think we should all keep that in mind. Everybody around us in this ecosystem. That's one amazing part of the multiverse X ecosystem Super positive, super supportive, no matter where you go staking providers, builders, the core team everybody's there.

Speaker 1: 56:09

Try to meet people, get into the conversations start building, ask for help and you'll get it. Yeah, that's a great way to end it. I think the tide is turning in the community and more and more people are starting to come together, collaborate, form an alliance, so to speak, but it's and you know in the background. You know I've been speaking to Subur a bit after our spaces and you know some things that maybe validators can do as well to kind of join this movement, um, together. So, so, um, it's definitely um, this great and amazing vibe that is kind of putting a blocker to all the negatives. Um, I think we've had enough of all these negatives and all these rugs and all these scams, and I think now the community is growing a lot more mature and we're pointing them out, we're calling people out who are nefarious, and we're protecting those around us and working together. And now, with some of these things that are starting to come out, it's just going to get stronger and stronger and together we are strong.

Speaker 1: 57:23

I think I used to use that as our tagline on like every tweet until John took over. Together, we are strong. You know muscles, muscle emoji. But it's true, yeah, it's true, though. Okay, so thanks again, wolfgang. I'm just gonna end it there. Maybe just say a last last thank yous, and then, and then I'll end it thanks a lot for having me.

Speaker 2: 57:48

A great setup, as per usual, was great, uh, speaking to you again, kevin, it's been a while um. Amazing job what you're building with collaboraton, all the support you're giving in the ecosystem. Keep up the great work, keep building, grow your team and, yeah, the bull run is around the corner.

Speaker 1: 58:07

Sure is, sure is. Thank you very much, and thank you, wolfgang, of course, for for everything you do. And you know we've, we're still talking. What seven years later? Maybe I don't even know when we first our first chat, but but we're still here.

Speaker 3: 58:23

We're still here.

Speaker 1: 58:24

We're still here, um, but, uh, but, yeah, thanks, yeah, yeah, exactly. So thanks for everything, um, of course, and we look forward to what entity brings and, uh, some of the people out there listening. Um, you know, if you see wolfgang, he's gonna love to have a chat with you. He doesn't want to see anybody on the stage, especially if it's you Just kidding, just kidding, but anyways, yeah, thanks again. So, yeah, thanks everyone out there in the community. This has been Episode 10 of Helios Horizons with Wolfgang, where we discussed many things building on MVX, building on Cosmos, interoperability, liquidity, cross-chain and the importance of community and collaboration. Please join us next week, where we will again have an amazing guest. I believe it's Zion Burnt Finance, who are actually doing a building chain abstraction on Cosmos and will play a pretty big role in the future as well. So, uh, thanks again, and I'll end it there and we'll see you next week. Bye.