Lukas Seel: 0:00

Welcome everybody. This is Helios Horizons, episode 31. I'm here with Robbie Shillstone and usually I will tell you what this piece of music is that we're listening to, but today I have the honor of having somebody else to actually talk about the piece a little bit. Just tell us what we just listened to, robbie here.

Robbie Shilstone: 0:21

Yeah, so what we just listened to is the score for my second film, uh called trash. It's a film about rats and pigeons fighting over scraps of food and in the end neither of them gets what they want, and so this was a fun, very, very short film. It's like just about two minutes long, uh, but the score kind of goes through all the emotions, from joy and a light, you know, heartedness to kind of the intensity, um, and yeah, it was uh recorded in new york with some of the best jazz musicians in the world, uh, mainly headed by our musical producer, emmett cohen, and musical director, I should say, and yeah, it's, it's a fun little song, nice little clip.

Lukas Seel: 1:06

I agree, I really love that music and I will talk a little bit more about jazz because, obviously, yeah, both of us New Yorkers, both of us into jazz and, yeah, I cannot not talk about it. So I'm looking forward to that. But before that, let me introduce who you just listened to, the man explaining the music, who is Robbie Shillstone, an animator, filmmaker, the creator of Public, which we'll talk about today, and also a mustache enjoyer, just like myself. So I'm very much looking forward to this conversation. We'll talk about a lot of things, but probably all sort of art and web 3 related. Um, welcome to helios horizons, robbie. How are you?

Robbie Shilstone: 1:54

I'm doing well. I've had better days. I'm a little under the weather and los angeles is on fire, so, you know, definitely a peculiar day, but I thought there's no better way to spend my time than hopping into a twitter space and talking about what I've been building for the past few years.

Lukas Seel: 2:10

So, besides those things doing incredible but yeah, really appreciate you having me on here- yeah, I appreciate that and you know, obviously these circumstances are always interesting, but we're also heating up towards some interesting phases for the project itself. So looking forward to talking about that. But first I want to kind of introduce you as a person a little bit more to the listeners. So let's talk a little bit about Robbie, certainly before Web3, kind of like your path and how you ended up in the ecosystem. Tell us a little bit about how you got started and how you first heard about Web3 and what you did before.

Robbie Shilstone: 2:54

Yeah for sure. So I'm a traditional artist background, went to school for animation, for illustration and design. School for animation, for illustration and design had a you know a bit of a run during the pandemic on social media where I was able to build a pretty large following, particularly on Instagram but also TikTok, and was riding that wave a little bit. I was like right when Reels came out and could add music to my animations and that was kind of a missing ingredient from a lot of my work. So you know, once we had a little bit of success and traction, I had a conversation with my manager His name is Brian Spencer and he and I saw the Web3 space, we saw the Beeple sale happen during that time and we were kind of looking for, you know, new ways to, you know, expand on my business.

Robbie Shilstone: 3:50

I had, you know, obviously worked with Apple and Disney and MoMA, but you know we realized that you know there are other places to expand into.

Robbie Shilstone: 3:59

So we were kind of exploring from a distance for a while, just like learning the lingo, learning the you know what a wallet is, like the most basic things for Web3. And while we were doing this and kind of trying to wrap our heads around what the hell was going on in the space. We got contacted by a group, particularly from Method man from the Wu-Tang Clan, uh with from method man, uh from the wu-tang clan, who's, uh, obviously a you know huge rapper and you know, I think, was interested in doing a collaboration with us with an unreleased track of his um. So that was kind of the, that's kind of how we got started, uh, which is a pretty crazy way. The world is very small on web3, so I was very happy to have something that kind of you know built a little bit of credibility into a space that you know really, you know thrives on. You know who do you know who have you worked with? That kind of you know aspect of the NFT world. So, yeah, for us that was an incredible opportunity to get involved.

Lukas Seel: 5:03

Do you?

Robbie Shilstone: 5:03

know how he found you.

Lukas Seel: 5:05

Was there some connection previously? Was this really like a web 3 connection or was this something okay? Like this guy animates um musical pieces and and I want a piece of that I think there were multiple parties involved in the piece.

Robbie Shilstone: 5:20

Um, there was kind of like an orchestrator, if you will, so someone who kind of pieced all the parties together to make it happen. There's yeah, there's the musical producer on the project, and then there were kind of like the organizers. So I don't believe Method man himself sought me out, but once we saw my work I think he was keen on doing something. So, yeah, it was multiple you know degrees of separation from how it actually got started. But yeah, by the end of it we were, all you know, aligned artistically with like what the piece wanted to. We wanted to be.

Robbie Shilstone: 5:55

And, yeah, the piece is actually a representation of the producer and Method man. The producer's name is Jay Ralph, the two of them meeting at I think it's Death Row Records back in the 90s. They met in a hallway and J Ralph had a cassette player and a bunch of tapes in like a knapsack and in the hallway he just popped in a few tapes and Method man just started freestyling on top of it and it was recorded on you know a camera and so we kind of abstracted that that moment and you know created, uh, you know, a piece that accompanied the song, one of which was, you know, played in one of those tapes. So, uh, yeah, it was a cool piece.

Lukas Seel: 6:45

Really really fun. Yeah, I mean pretty amazing way, like you, kind of like observing the space, as you put it right. Then somebody else who was certainly comes from a very, very different background not web3 at all, like you were saying even tape recorded, uh, their their first tracks and then both sort of aligning in web3. I think it's one of the beautiful things that that often happen in this space like very unexpected or very new and fresh collaborations that are perhaps just, you know, not happening as frequently in more traditional spaces like the music space, and yeah, I love that story. And so, like I wonder, too, you mentioned like observing the space. Did you see it like immediately, as sort of an artistic canvas or opportunity, or was it more like, oh, we're watching the space, like you know, from, obviously, pandemic 2020, numbers were going up and all of this stuff, or you know, was it? Was it very early on like sort of this I don't know new medium of expression that you saw, or was it something else?

Robbie Shilstone: 7:43

I mean, I think, like any piece of disruptive technology, it's a tool that you then have to really think about how you want to utilize it, how you want to, you know, build with it. You know, to be honest, at first it was overwhelming. I didn't have a Twitter, I was, you know, completely not in the crypto scene at all, and so I found it to be quite a lot to jump into. If I'm being honest, the kind of artistic works that were being presented were not impressing me. But, that being said, I still understood that this, as a tool, is a really compelling, you know, moment in history and I thought okay, you know, I understand why this exists, I understand why there's excitement around it. Perhaps we need to make more things that genuinely be excited about on this new tool and with this new tool.

Robbie Shilstone: 8:35

So for me, it was definitely a little bit of a culture shock, if you want to call it like jumping into a different country, but we're, you know, at this point as well, I think it really started to make sense, started to feel like more of a home, once we started to go to IRL events and like meet people and realize like, oh, there aren't, these aren't just like autonomous people they're. You know real people that you know are great, oftentimes very ambitious, talented, intelligent. You know people that you know are great, oftentimes very ambitious, talented, intelligent. You know people that you know with really compelling conversations to have as well. So, in my mind, I have found a home here, for sure, but it took a little while to get here.

Lukas Seel: 9:16

How long did it take from that Method man drop to then actually starting to release your own stuff, and what was your first sort of artwork or a piece that you released on chain?

Robbie Shilstone: 9:28

Yeah, the method man piece was technically minted on my own page on super rare. So once I had access to super rare, I was like, great, let's, let's try releasing a few more pieces. So I think the there was a couple of other sales that happened. Uh, there's a piece called shooby, which is like an abstracted character walk cycle. Um, and then had a couple of like portraits uh, like kind of like busts, like shoulder up, of a few characters that I had done for socials that performed particularly well. So, um, brought those on to Ethereum, made a few sales and then minted a few others.

Robbie Shilstone: 10:08

They kind of stopped, you know, making sales and, through that process, also just sharing my work on, you know, twitter, found a lot of people and a lot of animators in particular, who were, you know, fans of the work, who had seen my stuff on Instagram, were excited to see me starting to mint things on Chain.

Robbie Shilstone: 10:25

But a lot of them were on Solana and it was actually like the Quainosaurus team and kind of like the you know some of the premier, uh, you know artists on Solana that were like starting to explore that as a new alternative and we're pitching it as being like the you know, faster, cheaper option.

Robbie Shilstone: 10:44

Um, so that was obviously a really exciting aspect of what we were doing and I was, you know, like, okay, yeah, I, I felt those growing pains with ethereum. It felt like going back, dial up, and there were some actual artists who were eager to hang out that were also, just like you know, excited about my, about my work. I was like, okay, yeah, I'm happy to make this jump over and explore a little bit. So we minted a few pieces on Solana and those pieces pretty much all sold. They all sold which is incredible for the same amount on Ethereum as well. This is back when Ethereum was like probably like 4,000 and Solana was around 150. So they were selling for the same amount, which was great, and I was like, all right, that's a win-win in my mind to jump over to Solana and haven't looked back since pretty much.

Lukas Seel: 11:38

Yeah, I think I mean we'll talk a little bit about how things have evolved in, especially the one of one uh market. Um, I think I saw you post something about uh, your own sort of theory on it, um, but but let's first uh kind of get into when you were, when you started to think about like turning you know these like individual art pieces into you know more of a collection or then even more of an experience that other people could participate in, because I think that's really really interesting. So let's get into sort of the genesis of public public. I forget how you actually pronounce it.

Robbie Shilstone: 12:19

There's no right way to say it. It's either or works. I call it public. Uh, it's spelled in this way just because, for, for a number of reasons one, aesthetically, I prefer how it looks, but also, uh, the fact that music is at the core of the project and wanting letters that go through a full octave. Uh, you know, I think that for me, was something that I gravitated towards as well. Um, but, yeah, you can call it either way.

Robbie Shilstone: 12:44

Yeah, on January 1st 2022, my first I was at a coffee shop, had my, my meeting with my manager, and I was just like, okay, we have to make films through this. Like that was like very much so it was right after the Method man sale. I was like I don't know how, I don't know when, but like we're going to use this as a tool to make films because, at the end of the day, that is my primary artistic goal and endeavor is to to tell stories and make films. So, um, yeah, the it was a little bit of a weird path to get there. You, you know again, trying to figure out who to work with and you know, like what partners to do it. The debate of Ethereum and Solana was very much so on our mind Everyone's, you know encouraging us to go over to Ethereum because our work is better suited for that audience. But we knew better that the tech in the long run would probably like outlast.

Lukas Seel: 13:48

Whatever that momentary opinion was, what was the audience that was perceived to be on Ethereum at the time.

Robbie Shilstone: 13:57

A more fine art audience, one that was a bit more yeah, just one that kind of valued the visual a little bit more. So I would say the Solana audience at the time was perceived as being immature, as being perhaps not as a little bit more gamified and whatnot. So again, it's hard to say if that was true at the time or if it's still true now, but in my mind, you know, I believe that content is king. I believe that art is, you know, king. So wherever it is people will go is kind of my general philosophy. So if we make an experience that's undeniably great, that you know, we can sway the right people to come over. So yeah, it was early on that we knew that we wanted to use this to make, to fundraise films. So we did that. We kind of built out a whole process of like building proof of concept. So the first thing we did was a very short animated sequence called Bowler, where we auctioned off three, you know, like still frames, essentially of a character doing a motion and then essentially saying you know, by purchasing these you get to be part of seeing this animation come to life. So we did that and, you know, obviously it was just a fun little exercise. Then next thing was doing a second short or a proper for a short film called Off Leash, which was about a bunch of dogs in an urban park, and we auctioned off each character. There were 10 of them and we said whichever one sells for the most will become the protagonist of the film. And again, building out this use case of like, can we fund a film on Solana with NFTs? And we did it and we raised at the time this is in pretty much like the beginning of the bear market. So I think solana at the time was like 30 bucks or so. We actually had an entire separate film ready to start fundraising. Uh, but because the market took such a huge hit and we actually needed the fun, like the money that we had in mind for that other film, we said, okay, let's style it back, let's do something that's applicable and can actually be done during these bear market conditions. So, scale back.

Robbie Shilstone: 16:13

The film created a whole bunch of new characters made, made off leash, went to film festivals with it. I think it got accepted to one or two. And yeah, we're, you know, now looking at essentially expanding on that concept and doing something that's, rather than just a singular film about creating a real engine of storytelling and you know essentially being like there is no finish line with the amount of films that we want to make with this ongoing character collection with the public. So it's all about it's been like a gradual process of building out proofs of concepts to get to the next step Once we had off leash. We, you know, have been able to find more funding to expand on this concept and have secured a few grants in order for us to really dedicate, you know, the past few years to, you know, to build out what it is today. So we're obviously very excited. I'm very eager to see how these auctions perform, but it's been a long time coming, so that has been a very gratifying part of this process.

Lukas Seel: 17:17

I mean, you're surely finding Solana at a pretty nice moment again these days, so it was definitely a bet that paid out. Uh, huge really in the in the long run and also very interesting to see how, how everything has developed. And I think you know want to touch on a couple things, like one I'm curious like have you found that most of the um films so far have been funded by like a few individuals, as is often obviously through producers in the in the film industry? The case um, or is it? Is it pretty widespread? I mean, right now, 10 characters obviously don't really tell the whole story, but but do you see like um, I don't know a tendency in in one direction or the other? That is like truly, let's say, crowdsourced, a little bit chipped in by a lot of people, or is it still this kind of concept? A few people give quite a bit to make things like this possible?

Robbie Shilstone: 18:14

I think, in my mind, it's a middle ground between the two, the extreme being crowdsource a couple of dollars from hundreds of thousands of people versus, uh, you know, larger investments, uh, from you know, single entities. I think that to me, there's a middle ground there where, you know, there, I don't think every fan should feel obligated to fund your creative endeavors. I don't think that's like, uh, in my opinion, the world that we live in today, there's too many places for you to finance in order for you to feel like Patreon and things like that. I've never resonated with that as like a real business model. I know it works for some people, but I think that success is quite, you know, limited compared to how many people actually try to do it, and it feels like another subscription that you're adding to your, you know, your, your whole list of expenses every month for content that you know it's. It's just a weird relationship to me, a bit um and so in my mind, I'm like I think that there is also a premium experience that you can give fans that want to invest in what you're developing, that want to bet on you as a creator who thinks that you're going places, and, you know, I think that to me, is a in the form of an investment, thinking that there's a return on that investment. I find that to be a more compelling way of patronage than uh, than say just, uh, you know tips, essentially, uh, so in my mind, that has been kind of a, a opportunity that really didn't exist for the digital arts until you know.

Robbie Shilstone: 19:56

Now we have this as a web3 as a tool. So, um, yeah, I think for us as well, we wanted to make sure that there was a free experience for everyone who did want to collect, who did want to participate in public. But I understand that most people cannot afford thousands of dollars in speculative assets and that doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to enjoy Web3. Put a lot of time and money into, into creating a free collectible experience, uh, as the launch of our project, knowing that you know, if we want this to scale how we think we it will, uh, it, you know we need to have that as our a point of entry for everyone who wants to participate.

Robbie Shilstone: 20:41

Um, and we didn't even monetize. We didn't monetize any aspect outside of some free collectible giveaways that we did. It was really like, meant to just be like do you want to be part of this Just sign up with an email, collect something and you know you're in. That's your login to our world. So in my mind, that has been you know. Again, talking about the middle ground between those two, I think that you need to have both in order to build a real fan base and a real community.

Lukas Seel: 21:12

Yeah, and one thing about the intro song that we listened to actually is, this is the intro song that you'll see when you click on the website and it's really like a beautiful experience.

Lukas Seel: 21:20

And you've said that word before experience, and you meant you've said that word before, and I think I really want to emphasize that as, as this sort of you know, there's the collector's experience, but there's also just the consumer's experience, and then there's sort of the gamified um, uh, participants experience, and that's something um, you're, you're building on and like, tell us about that sort of process. So you, you started with like okay, you have some say basically, in the character that is being chosen, the highest bid gets to be the protagonist in Off Leash there we have it pinned, by the way, if you want to watch that and then it kind of even evolved from there to something that is very kind of immersive, or at least right now it feels that way. First of all, maybe tell us a little bit of the intro story that will sort of build the foundation of Public and how you came up with that and how the whole concept sort of evolved toward that.

Robbie Shilstone: 22:24

Yeah for sure. So when we were planning our first film again the one that was going to predate off-leash but we had to put on the back burner we kind of had different tiers of investment that would kind of feature in the film. One was going to be background characters in the film and then the last one were going to be like the seasonal kind of cityscape to show the passage of time, you know, between different seasons, and those would be the lowest barrier of entry. As time went on, we kind of realized that everyone's a background character and that like philosophically, we are all someone else's background character in their story and how that, like as a storytelling mechanism, that to me was so compelling to the point of being like what if I just like stopped in the middle of a film and started following a different character and and and see what unravels from that um? And so we kind of abandoned the idea of like making singular films with protagonists already determined and essentially expanded on the background character concept just to be the whole character collection. And to me that is like it is how life actually functions. It is more, it kind of leans into the truth that I believe, which is that everyone has a story worth telling and if you follow any character, uh, and any person in this world, you'll learn something about human nature and the truth of our, you know our existence, uh, you know, by hanging out with them for a day good or bad, ugly or beautiful, like there's truth in all of it. So we really wanted to emphasize that aspect of the story and everyone's story to you know again, just be able to tell more compelling, more unique, more niche stories that you know perhaps the regular industry would not be as keen on making, but we think are worthwhile to tell. So that's kind of how it like started with off leash, we did want to make sure that we had, like the producer experience and feel like they were able to like be in the writing room to see the storyboards that were being developed.

Robbie Shilstone: 24:43

And again, there was this improvisational element to the storytelling that I find super exciting because it's like we know the characters, we know the location, whose perspective is it going to be through? And, yeah, what like because of that? What is their desire in the story? What are we like, you know, what do we follow and learn about them, just by them being the protagonist? I don't know.

Robbie Shilstone: 25:09

I think that, like, even if you think about TV shows like Avatar, the Last Airbender, which is obviously a great, you know kind of epic story, there's like a character in it, the cabbage guy, the cabbage man, who's like every time he shows up in an episode, his cart gets destroyed and literally the only thing he pretty much ever says he just screams my cabbages. And he's an iconic character. He's someone that like the whole fandom like rallies around and loves, but he has absolutely no depth to him. In a way, that's like fun, uh, and he's just like a one note, you know know kind of character. But my thought process is like, well, what's his day to day, like life, like, like what happened after it gets destroyed? Like I think it would be fun to if they had a whole spinoff episode that just followed him.

Robbie Shilstone: 26:01

And perhaps you know that like that's the kind of general philosophy we want to bring to storytelling is like everyone has that potential, um.

Robbie Shilstone: 26:10

So, yeah, the kind of process is going to be that these characters are going to be auctioned off, uh, slowly, over time, uh, one one a week is kind of the pace that we want to establish.

Robbie Shilstone: 26:21

Um, and by doing so you're, you know, buying into, uh, being a producer of this project, which producers essentially will kind of have the power within this project to kind of help dictate which films we prioritize in our production process. You'll be able to sit down with myself and develop pitches for your characters that will live on the website and as we hit financial milestones through those character auctions, then it's time for the producers to decide which film we make next. So obviously there are some kind of there's going to be some learning curves with, like give and take with collectors. I need to make sure that I'm not compromising my own artistic vision and that the characters and the stories we tell are consistent under the umbrella of a public. But I think there are so many opportunities for collectors to interject their own ideas in a compelling and fun way and do it do so without compromising. You know the kind of things that I want to create in this world. So that's kind of our the broader pitch of it.

Lukas Seel: 27:28

Yeah, I think I. I mean it's, it's so interesting. And then you also, um, as we mentioned before, right, you have this viewer experience as well, which is you don't really you don't need to pay anything to enjoy this, and I think you know. Again, going back to the website, which is really beautifully done, is you've? You've start with this intro movie of two, a rat and a pigeon, fighting over an apple, over this beautiful jazz track, and at the end of it you're prompted to choose a side, and I assume that sort of gamification is something that will continue throughout the episodes or the films. You produce. What's the thought there? And also highly encourage anybody who's listening to check out. Uh, public dot something, robbie, help me, you're muted. Check, check.

Robbie Shilstone: 28:26

I'm sorry, sorry.

Robbie Shilstone: 28:28

No publicworld is the, the website. Um, thank you. Yeah, for sure you can find it in all the links and everything. Um, yeah, the like, the gamified nature to the viewing experience, I think is something that we absolutely want to expand on. I have a ton of ideas that I think will be really fun.

Robbie Shilstone: 28:48

Uh, you know, again, wanting to make sure that the free collector experience is as compelling and fun as producers. Um, knowing that there's going to be more rats and pigeons and there are character holders is important and you need to realize that. Know, think about everyone that you know you're trying to appeal to. Um, yeah, in my mind there are a number of reasons, you know, to build on web 3. But, like, building urgency to viewing experiences, I think is something that I find to be quite compelling. If, uh, if you're in a world where all content is available to stream at any point, you can always put something off to, you know, until later. Right, you think I could watch that tomorrow.

Robbie Shilstone: 29:36

But creating experiences and viewing, you know like, essentially, film premieres in my mind, uh, need to be these like capstone events within the public project.

Robbie Shilstone: 29:47

You know, essentially like a one time to, to view a film for a set period of time, while we're submitting to film festivals, while we're, you know, pushing that side of the project, uh, having that singular moment is something that is exciting and something that we want to reward people for attending.

Robbie Shilstone: 30:07

So that kind of gamified nature, I think can be done in a tasteful way. In a way that's about rallying everyone around an experience, about building out your rat and pigeon collections further and getting assets into people's hands. At the end of the day, that is, for a lot of people, the excitement is, you know, collecting. So let's make sure that these experiences are, you know, supporting all those things, not only in terms of the viewership of like films, but also during auctions and like there's a weekly chance for people to collect, uh, you know, the resource that rats and pigeons love most, which is trash, and uh, you building that into the rollout of these characters as well, I think is going to be its own entire experience that people are going to, you know, really try and optimize and kind of play around in a way that's going to be really fun.

Lukas Seel: 31:03

Which side are you, by the way? Are you a rat or a pigeon?

Robbie Shilstone: 31:07

I'm Switzerland, so I have no say. I simply cannot take a side, or else people know the bias will come through. So I love them both equally as much. They're both my children.

Lukas Seel: 31:22

Yeah, and I think that's so cool. And this is actually an interesting aspect I think to talk about as well, which is sort of the integration and the meaningful integration of the technology. I think the first thing to note when going to the website is the technology is not visible, so the abstraction is actually very, very interesting. Not being visible doesn't mean it's not being used in meaningful ways, because I believe at least the site you choose mints an NFT that you actually own to your wallet and then you know, like who knows what sort of fun gamification you come up with, whether you can somehow, you know, dynamically feed your NFT and it grows fatter or, you know, starves to death, or some Tamagotchi ways of gamifying that. But you know there's so many ways that are actually meaningfully supported by the technology and I think that's super interesting. How do you think about, like this sort of bridge or, yeah, experience versus using the technology in ways that are really cool and novel without imposing it on consumers?

Robbie Shilstone: 32:33

Yeah, I think for me, the priority was always to have the Web3 be a tool and not a brand. You know, I think for me, I'm considering my Web2 audience as well, as people who I know love my work, who love the worlds I've been developing with them for the past few years, and we have 600,000 people who are keen on seeing what I have to do next. So if I'm creating experience that has a ton of friction, that will inherently be a problem with getting those people over and again, just like getting them excited about what we're working on. So for me, I needed to have this initial you know launch of the project be something that was frictionless, and the whole process was all about removing barriers to entry. Uh, and so that's why we have an email sign up. We just use gmail to collect a rat or a pigeon, making sure that people feel like they have no clue. Honestly, the bigger problem was that the Web3 community was like when's the mint? I was like you guys already did it, and what a great problem to have. I suppose I think we did something right if that's the case, and to even call it a minting experience is kind of bastardizes, really what it is, which is just meant to be fun, and storytelling and getting people involved. Yeah, so that was definitely a high priority for us when we were concepting the launch of the project and beyond that, now that we have these sites, it's like great.

Robbie Shilstone: 34:06

I can airdrop trash to all these different wallets seamlessly. I can separate the rats and pigeons and have them compete over resources. I can make them feel like there's a real competition to be had and can push the narrative that we've established even further, which is to say that rats and pigeons are mortal enemies. So let's keep that as a focal point whenever we're considering their experience. So it's like which side eats more trash by the end of the year? Maybe we reward whoever's winning that feud.

Robbie Shilstone: 34:46

Who has eaten the most trash? Do they get rewarded with something special? Uh, you know all these ways to like just have so much fun with this. I think is like also, which is where my mind's at constantly trying to create an experience that I would be excited, as a collector, to participate in, and that is like has been my north star for the past few years, even during times times where I'm like what the fuck am I doing? It's like no, no, I need to realize that I need to be critical about what I want in this space and try and bring that into reality. And if I want it, I'm positive that there are other people that actually will too.

Lukas Seel: 35:48

Yeah, and I think one thing of specifically target or, you know, are you happy keeping them separate, sort of like what are the plans of of, you know, maybe building bridges or being happy to have two different sets of audiences completely.

Robbie Shilstone: 36:03

Yeah, I think I don't think it's a healthy mindset to say that we need to have every single one of those followers over into Web3. Like, a lot of people just don't enjoy the act of collecting. They're like I'm excited for when the films come out. But you know, beyond that, that's my level of engagement and that's fine, that's great. Like I'm happy to meet people where they're comfortable.

Robbie Shilstone: 36:26

You know, I think for us to have an entire experience that can be had without ever needing to connect a Web3 wallet is important for sure, but we do realize that, you know, the ideal is that most people within this project understand that these assets and these are like collectibles they can trade and they can participate in it. Further, I think I'm okay keeping them separate and our language is certainly different over on Instagram and whatnot. We're just talking about filmmaking. We're talking about characters and storytelling, first and foremost, and really not touching on too much of the Web3 terminology, because that's not what appeals to them. If it did, they would be in web3 already, um, but if we can kind of act as a trojan horse in some ways and have people get involved, realize they've been collecting nfts this entire time and and then be like oh, by the way, you know, these are collectibles. That is a far more compelling. Uh, you encourage people to participate.

Lukas Seel: 37:32

And one thing that I was curious about, too, is you announced, I think, public now almost a couple of years ago two years ago, I mean 2025, I think in 2023, right, and a lot of things have happened in the Web3 space and, of course, also in the world, but there are some new mechanisms that are now very popular. Thinking of, obviously, specifically, meme coins is an interesting thing. There are some new gamification mechanisms that have evolved. Is that something you kind of want to stay clear of evolved? Is that something you kind of want to stay clear of, specifically also because you have a web 2 audience that maybe shouldn't be burned by by the gambling activities of the of the degens in the web 3 space? Or is that something where you're like okay, I'm looking at these new trends emerging from web 3 and I'm looking to integrate them, or is that really something you want to? You want to stay self-sufficient as an artist, as a project, and just use, you know, whatever actually makes sense, rather than, you know, trying to integrate the newest, hottest thing.

Robbie Shilstone: 38:37

Yeah, I think the latter of what you said is definitely where my mind's at. You know, I need to know my role as an artist in this space, like what my, where my time and effort is best utilized, and that's just in creating, you know, visuals and stories and you know supporting it in that way. I do think, you know, I think that there's a compelling world where you can implement meme coins in a way that actually feels like it's serving a purpose. You know, there was talks with some people who were like when's the trash coin coming out for public? And I'm like that's not happening, definitely not. I do not need to add that into my laundry list of things to take care of in this space. Um, but no, I'm, you know.

Robbie Shilstone: 39:22

I think to me it's like what are the webtooth aspects of the of our project, such as the storytelling and the comments on Instagram, and how can we implement that into the weekly character auctions? So we're really like. For me, the thing that's really compelling is like we have a chat little function on our website during the auction, essentially prompting people very similarly to how I do on Instagram, saying what's their name or what's their story, and everyone who has a rat or a pigeon will be able to go into that comment section, write a story and you can like other people's comments as well. So there is like this you know, there there's a element to like what we're doing that I think incorporates that familiar practice from web two on our site during the auctions, and once the auction's done, that's the end of storytelling for them. And as well as that, we want to reward that kind of behavior as well. So if you have the most popular story, every week, or on one week you're going to be airdropped a piece of trash, or, you know, on one week you're going to be, you know, airdropped a piece of trash.

Robbie Shilstone: 40:36

And just a way to again just encourage people to participate, kind of put it's our carrot on a stick, if you want to think, if we want people to do something, you know we say you can get trash out by doing it, and that is like a powerful mechanism. And I think that kind of serves the same function as what meme coins would, which is just building incentives for people to participate, and people have been doing it for free for years now. So let's just like, add a little extra and we can encourage people to be like, hey, if you love telling stories over here on Instagram, why don't you come over to the website, check out the character that's coming out and write a story for them there? Even if they don't do that, it's, I think, still a win.

Robbie Shilstone: 41:14

Like, if they just want to stay on Instagram and tell stories, that serves its own function. It's still valuable for us. So you know, I don't want I never want someone to feel like they're forced to participate on the public website. If they want to experience it where they're comfortable, I'm happy and they're just serving the greater purpose of this project. So, yeah, it can be easy to get swept up into what's working in that moment. I want to make sure that I'm doing something that I can do for the next three or four years, and it feels like it's still sticky, still good and people are still having fun with it.

Lukas Seel: 41:56

I want to talk a little bit more about the through line that is here, which is collaboration, because I think your pieces with the music and the jazz I think that's such a great example of really working with someone else in a very, very substantive way to create something quite unique.

Lukas Seel: 42:13

And your approach, also on Instagram and here as well, asking, hey, what's their story, what's their name, what's your idea of what you're looking at here is so interesting is is there and you mentioned, of course, the producers, um already who will have a very, very significant say in the way that um public, as a project, um evolves through, you know, having real producer rights, so to speak, um, how do you like, how do you think about this? Or like, how does it affect your um artistic process? This idea, collaboration, what are like some of the different types of collaboration that you value, like, for example, community versus producers versus artistic collaborators? And, like you know, give us, give us, an insight of how you're going to use maybe, all of these in public and, as you, you know, evolve as a project and as you evolve as a project.

Robbie Shilstone: 43:12

So the most obvious place of collaboration so far has been with musicians and composers. It is a new muscle for me to exercise in that way. I've always just pulled from libraries of music that already exist and I'm like, oh, that fits, let me use that. But now creating something new, it's definitely a bit of a daunting, has been a daunting task for me and there's definitely been an exercise in letting go of what I want something to be and letting it turn into what it has to be. I suppose that has been a difficult thing for me because I'm a control freak in a lot of ways. Has been a difficult thing for me because I'm a control freak in a lot of ways when it comes to my work. But also, you know, I wrote a lot about this after the recording for the Trash short film and I had been using a temporary track that I really liked and it was the kind of more comical leaning, but also it was intense in its own way and so obviously I had to let go of that as like what it was going to be, and now I found that if I want the best product, I need to trust the people that are the best at what they do, just as much as I would hope a client that comes to me trust me to make the best version of my work. So it was definitely a learning curve there. I have loved the process. So, with the character collection, every single character is going to have their own unique audio clip and they're each assigned an instrument that kind of acts as their voice in this world. So music is very much at the core of this project. It is again their voice, in the sense that there will never be dialogue. It will always be music and sound design that, you know, uh, drive the story forward. And, yeah, in my mind, you know needing to keep an open mind with um, with how those uh kinds of you know recordings evolve and making sure that I'm getting what is something that resonates with me, but maybe it's a better idea than I could have even imagined myself. Um, so that collaboration has been great. Uh, have loved doing that and it's my contribution to the, the jazz genre as a whole, which feels incredibly rewarding in its own way.

Robbie Shilstone: 45:27

Um, as far as storytelling, like obviously with socials, love like hearing people's ideas and I love to build on their stories to make them feel like they're seen, to make them feel like you know, that we can build on each of these ideas and expand on them further. Um, it's not too dissimilar from like playing Dungeons and Dragons, which I am a, which I am a dungeon master. I'm loud and proud about it, and it is so much fun to build an improvisational story together. And it isn't that dissimilar from how I anticipate collaborating with producers, in the sense that I act as the world to some degree and the producer, if they so wish. They certainly don't have to, but they can kind of act as like.

Robbie Shilstone: 46:14

Well, this is what I think my character would like and this is what I think they would do, and these are their fears and these are their you know, their hopes and dreams and, like I can craft stories, knowing who the character archetype is, put them in situations that test their character in some ways, and I think that is like a. It's such a exciting, you know, tool for storytelling that I think you know leads to outcomes that are surprising for everyone. And you know, I think nowadays that is like the hardest thing, is like what can? What story hasn't been told? And perhaps it needs to be done in a way that is entirely new and novel in order to find that new result. So I'm excited to see how that goes. Again, I have my own concerns. I'm a little wary on giving too much control over, but I think again, there's so many opportunities to inject small ideas and drive the ship a little bit. So I'm excited to see how it goes.

Lukas Seel: 47:16

And also I want to first reminder now if you want to ask Robbie a question, put it in the comments. You can also request the mic. We'll leave a little bit of space at the end of that. I want to quickly talk about New York City because obviously the public website is, like you know, emulating, imitating the subway sign and the subways in there, and you live in LA but that doesn't look like LA. So talk a little bit about the inspiration and sort of the jazz scene and also just kind of the big city storytelling that really I think the whole experience feels like.

Robbie Shilstone: 47:58

Yeah, it's definitely heavily inspired by New York. I am a New Yorker. I was born and raised there, outside the city a bit, but spent so much time going in there. There, um, outside the city a bit, but spent so much time going in there um, there is, uh, I have such a profound love for the city. Uh, I was just got back from there a couple days ago and spent the whole holidays there. So it's definitely like in my heart, it's in my blood.

Robbie Shilstone: 48:23

Um, I think that as a kid, I would ride like the subways and with my friends and, and we would literally do exactly what we're doing right now, which is looking at characters and making up stories for them. And there was something that was like it's such a radical form of empathy to try and imagine someone's life in a way that I think is just so. I don't know. It grounds you a little bit in a way that I think is just so. I don't know. It grounds you a little bit in a way. So I think New York City, with the millions of different people that you simply couldn't even fathom existing, somehow sitting across from you in on a subway or on a train or across the street from you like. That is such a massive point of inspiration.

Robbie Shilstone: 49:10

For me, the city is just culturally rich. I grew up going to museums and I could attribute that to a lot of my stylistic decisions, with a lot of modernist paintings that I grew up looking at and imagining moving and coming to life. The jazz scene was born there. It's like an internationally known genre that had its roots in New York City, which there's something that's so enriching about the city because of that and again it has to be the soundtrack for this project, if nothing else because of that. But also it's such a wide stylistic genre that there's so much room to explore all these different emotions that we want Fear and love and hate and pain. You can really get that wide range in jazz, more so than I'd say a lot of different musical styles and, yeah, it's my love letter to the city, it's my thanks for all of these incredible stories that I've already been able to tell because of it. So building on it feels like a no-brainer.

Lukas Seel: 50:30

You really just made me miss the city a lot and I also just got back from there.

Lukas Seel: 50:35

So one thing maybe to touch on before we start wrapping it up is something we touched on a little bit earlier.

Lukas Seel: 50:46

It's sort of the difference in collector's experience over the years You've been in this space now for, you know, almost five years, or going on five years, or in your fifth year, and we talked about Ethereum in the beginning sort of being this bespoke sort of collector experience moving to Solana, which is maybe a little bit more gamified, not so serious of the people for the people, more gamified, not so serious of the people for the people. And you know NFTs in general have seen quite a stark decline in sales and volumes and almost every metric. But you know we talked about your thesis and I want to talk about that just a little bit or give you a chance to sort of explain, like, how do you see this sort of art, nft, um financial markets, like converging in web3, um, are there any tendencies that you've liked, that you think are trends that are going to stay? Or like, what's your, what's your sort of high level overview of what's happening and what do you think is going to happen in the future?

Robbie Shilstone: 51:49

Well, I think that the NFT market of 2021 had no real business existing. It was a flash in the pan, the amount of projects that were being supported with no real sense of plan or purpose. It was a fever, a fever dream, really. But that being said, that doesn't mean that there weren't incredible things being developed at that time. But I think, like any reasonable investor, you look at what the metrics are that you're trying to measure on, and there have been so many good projects that have developed out of that been so many good projects that have developed out of that. It's just, you know, the volume at which people were pitching ideas was insane, to the point where now, all of a sudden, you know it turned into a gambling machine essentially and that is not the world we're in anymore. Meme coins are a way better gambling tool for those that do like to speculate and do like to see their bets pay off. So then the calls in the question like what's the role of NFTs? What's their advantages, what's their disadvantages? Their advantages is that they are scarce. Their advantages is that they are visually prominent, that art is prominent on NFTs. I think that there is the utility aspect of NFTs, which is always thrown around as a buzzword, but, genuinely, what do you get out of? This is an important thing to consider, whether that's attending premieres, whether that's you know, you know getting in the writer's room. For us, we have tried to push on every single one of these pain points or these advantages with the public character collection, all one of ones, all individually designed and animated. All you know visually, like strong and you know, getting you into the project in a way that no one else can. These are all things that I think are what is going to separate the next NFT run. Honestly, I genuinely hope that more incredible things are developed in this space.

Robbie Shilstone: 54:08

I think that it takes time to understand, like how to build incentive structures, how to you know what is the point of a project is like already more than most projects can say, even the ones that are successful. It's like, yes, but what is the specific thing you're trying to do outside of just growing a brand, which is kind of an ambiguous, you know moving target? It's like what's the product that you're developing, what's the problem that you're solving? And so for us, it's been a an exercise in understanding this industry and understanding where we fit in it, where the hole in the market is which, at one point, I would have said you know, solana might not be the best place for an art-centric boutique character collection, but the fact that it doesn't exist here, in my mind almost, is the advantage. To say no, we're doing something, you know, dramatically different than everyone else, and that is the point. That's why we're doing this. So I find, you know, it's definitely a, it's definitely a bet that we'll see if it pays off in the long run.

Robbie Shilstone: 55:19

But I also know that, if we pull the camera back a little bit, we're looking at the beginning of perhaps a pivotal moment in history in terms of the digital cataloging of assets and if we think that these assets have longevity to them, if we think that this is a new way to catalog artistic creations and we're talking about timeless works that can be minted on-chain and how does that play out in history is a vastly different conversation that I don't think the general Web3 space is ready to have because we're so short-sighted with our endeavors.

Robbie Shilstone: 56:02

But if we really think that this is about to be where the future is heading, we're at ground zero of it.

Robbie Shilstone: 56:10

If you're in crypto, to begin with I'd say you're still early because you know you're looking at a digital, you know a digital financial system that could possibly replace, you know, a large portion of the global economy, and this is the means by which it's being built economy, and this is the means by which it's being built. I think these timeless art will always have a seat at the table in history, and this is just a new place to develop it and to share it and collect it. So, in my mind, I really try not to look at like, whatever the meta is in that moment, I don't try and follow. You know what collections are doing well, uh, and, and why they're doing well, um, I think it's worth some, you know, inspection, but like to try and mimic it is to. You know, I think is a foolish endeavor. It's like you gotta find your own, your own voice, your own path, your own strategy. So, yeah, we're going to just let this thing rip and see what the hell happens. I'm very excited about it, though.

Lukas Seel: 57:16

I love that. I love that as a quote as well. Well, lastly, let's specifically just highlight what the next steps are for public. I just pinned up there your character collection is coming this month. Tell us a little bit more and tell us you know how to follow along, how to spend all of our hard-earned salamis on this collection, and you know how we can follow you and your work.

Robbie Shilstone: 57:45

Yeah. So the main event is here. After years of developing the public, character collection is kind of like the main collectible experience for public. We're looking at a new one-of-one character every single week. I can tell you guys, because you've all been very patient sitting in here, that the first auction is going to be January 30th. It's going to be a 24-hour hour auction and it will be happening on our own website. We will be like it will all be on Solana and it is a again, it's just the very much so the beginning of this project in a lot of ways. But we're looking at, you know, hundreds of characters over the next couple of years. Uh, one every single week. We have we have around two to three years worth of characters ready to go right now. So you know, again, I'm not concerned about market conditions.

Robbie Shilstone: 58:42

I think that remaining committed to like this long-term rollout strategy is what we have done on Instagram. It's what we've seen be successful in other ways and if I want to build a real, genuine fandom and community around this project, I think that this is like your Saturday morning cartoon or your weekend comic strip. It's like a reason to show up every single week, even if you don't plan on collecting a character. You read their stories. You can, you know, listen to the music. It's a new, you know again new character every single week. So, um, you know, I think that that's just like a priority for us is, how do we, uh, make sure that people feel like there's always something coming next? Um, and yeah, the characters are all unique all different shapes, sizes, ages, colors. It's just as diverse of a world as the one we live in now, so I'm very keen on seeing how it goes.

Robbie Shilstone: 59:44

If you guys want to follow along, you can simply go to our Twitter, just public underscore world. You can go to our website to collect a rat or a pigeon now in order to. You'll need one of those in order to participate in the auction, but there's no rush, it's just, it's an open mint, essentially, so whenever you want one, it'll be there waiting for you. And, yeah, it's, it's been, you know, a long time coming. You know we've been, you know, carving this path out and making sense of this space for quite a long time. I'm just very excited to get it out in the world after living my mind for so many years, but I have no doubt that it will be successful one way or another for the fact that it exists, I think is already you know. For me it shows that you know it exists like that's a I can't believe it's actually out in the world now.

Lukas Seel: 1:00:35

I'm genuinely so excited about that and also so excited for you. Um is there? Is there like a timeline for the first film dropping already?

Robbie Shilstone: 1:00:45

So great question. We're looking. You know it's going to be dependent on how the auctions perform. I can't, you know, commit to anything that we're not. You know we're not going to have the funds to do so. Depending on how well they do, we 100% plan to have an auction or a film done by the end of this year, a film done by the end of this year. We're going to see if we can get it screened at breakpoint. That would be ideal, but our kind of high hope version of that is two films within this year.

Robbie Shilstone: 1:01:23

Again, a character is going to be coming out. We're going to be developing these films together. Oh, excuse me, mute it. Unmute, mute it. You're back. I just had to sneeze a couple times and want to make sure you guys didn't have to thank you. Yeah, the, if we can have. You know, film development is constantly happening behind the scenes. Film development is constantly happening behind the scenes with the producers while we're fundraising, so it's not like we're just sitting waiting for us to raise enough money. That is our job becomes film development and pitch development. And then again, once we hit those financial milestones, film production begins.

Lukas Seel: 1:02:07

Yeah, super, super amazing. I really this is genuinely one of the most exciting projects for me in in the space and I've been following and looking forward, uh to it for a very long time way too long. You've. You've kept me waiting for such a long time and I'm so excited um january 30th, uh, for the first one, and then one every week for a very long time, and I think that's such a great concept and really letting new audiences file in at any point, really any given week, and such a great event style as well. What a great experience and what a great project. And I don't say this like I hate endorsing things like live, but I'll make an exception for this one because really, yeah, what a fantastic idea and I'm very much looking forward to that coming to life very soon. Thank you so much, robbie, for taking the time and really giving us some inside views and experiences and just opinions on how you've all built it and why you're building it. Thank you so much for that.

Robbie Shilstone: 1:03:18

Yeah, absolutely Really appreciate your time as well, lucas. It's always a pleasure to catch up. It's been long overdue that we hop on a call together, so glad to do it, and this means as well and hope to see you in the mustache dial call tomorrow as well.

Lukas Seel: 1:03:32

Show you a few visuals as well I'll be there, uh, if you can bet on that. Thank you all so much for tuning in. Um very, very, uh. Happy to have had robbie shillstone of the great um project that is called Public, or Public, if you will Check them out. Really great. This was Helios Horizons, episode 31, and thank you all so much for tuning in. We'll be back this time next week and have a great evening or day, wherever you are. Thank you so much for tuning in. Talk soon. Bye-bye, thank you.