Lukas Seel: 0:00

This is Helios Horizons, episode 39. Today, we are joined by a special guest, Ahmed Sarjini from Hatom Protocol. Welcome, Ahmed.

Ahmed Serghini: 0:13

Hey, well, hi everyone, and thank you for having me Excited to chat today, like with you.

Lukas Seel: 0:23

Yeah, we have an interesting situation today. I think and I I kind of want to zoom out a little bit because the the markets are crashing it's an interesting time, so I think it's it's a good moment to we'll talk about product and, of course, the things that Hatom is building and ahmed has been building for years now, but maybe also take it as a time, as a reflection, to actually focus on the things that matter and that brought us here in the first place. And so, yeah, very excited to talk to an entrepreneur in the space that has been around for a long time, is building on MultiversX, is also building a Layer Zero with Soul, and we'll talk about all of that. Ahmed, one thing that we usually start with is a little bit of a backstory, so tell us a bit about yourself, like what you did before you encountered crypto and maybe already an insight on how you first came in touch with this technology and what you liked about it.

Ahmed Serghini: 1:24

Sure, so should it be long or a short intro?

Lukas Seel: 1:28

Whichever you want, I'll take the full story for sure.

Ahmed Serghini: 1:32

Yeah, so well, what I can say is that I have a business background, have been like an entrepreneur since, since I'm very young age, managed like multiple companies in the trade by space, initially been invested and started actually getting interested in crypto at the very beginning, got more in love with what it was offering as time passed. So at some moment like I, started becoming like a trader, used the first uh defy applications like itland. That became avi afterward and uh yeah. Then at some point come I came across elrond, found, uh, found the project and what was being built super interesting. Saw the launch of the Meyer DEX at that moment, all the metrics that the chain was achieving. I was impressed by all of that. This is when I actually decided to transition, you see, from just an investor to a builder and try to contribute from inside the chain too. So, yeah, that could be like an intro.

Lukas Seel: 2:53

Yeah, very nice. I think this idea of contributing and like going like finding a builder path or finding a path or your place in Web3 is super interesting. Before that, like, do you you remember your first sort of interaction, the first time you heard about Web3, blockchain, crypto, all of that Was there anything in particular that stood out to you in that moment where you were like, oh this is interesting, or was it a scam at first? When you encountered it? How did you feel about the whole, let's say, industry when you first heard about it?

Ahmed Serghini: 3:31

Well, I would say there were like a couple of things that created this aha moment. So, you see, like compared compared to real money. You see, like uh, the crypto money is is different because, like our real money is actually, you see, like uh always printed and it can. You see, like uh constantly increase. So, like uh. For me, that was something that standed out, actually, the fact that here the value can really be preserved and the inflation can be controlled. Something else that was really or felt really interesting is the fact that in blockchain, you are able to create applications that are decentralized, and that allows you to remove any intermediaries in the process, so lending protocols, for example. So this unit like the same experience that you will be able to get if you wanted to go to your bank. Basically, the difference is that you can do that like whenever you want. Yeah, everything happens in a pretty like decentralized way. So I would say, like those are, like some examples that stood out to me yeah so.

Lukas Seel: 4:52

So probably was it like reading the bitcoin white paper or something specific that that, um, you know, made you dive into it then and then start investing. And how did that first investment journey go? Sounds like you must have been doing okay with it if you then decided to build on it and probably didn't get burnt on the first one. Or did you have any bad experiences in the early days?

Ahmed Serghini: 5:18

Well, it's Like it happened a very long time ago and I don't think that anyone you see like remembers that exact thing. I see it more as a journey, you see, like multiple things that compounded that led us, you see like, reach this vision and try to adopt it.

Lukas Seel: 5:40

And you mentioned. So you mentioned this idea of, you know, being in control of your money or also having a different sort of financial independence, perhaps from institutions. Obviously, you started building something yourself in that. But what were sort of the problems that you identified specifically? And perhaps also then in the space that you found you mentioned being early in Aave, or even Aave before Aave was Aave Was there something that you felt was missing either from the capabilities of that platform that made you want to jump into it as a builder? What was the sort of impetus and impulse that made you go from investing to contributing and building yourself?

Ahmed Serghini: 6:28

Well, I would say that at the beginning we didn't have the intention to change how DeFi worked. In a way, like when building Hatam, our goal mostly was to help MultiversX to bring this key DeFi component that was missing in the ecosystem. And now, like with Soul, we are actually trying, you see, like to change a bit how people can interact with DeFi application and try to Soul some like present issues that we are finding like in this space in terms of liquidity present issues that you are finding like in the space in terms of of liquidity, and okay, let's in.

Lukas Seel: 7:12

In that case, let's, let's dive a little bit um into the products and everything that you're building and have been building. So, Hatom um, just introduce us to sort of what um Hatom does um, what you, what you build already, um, and what you're in the process of perhaps building. We can start with the lending protocol, liquid staking and all of that, and perhaps what problems you felt it needed to Soul on Multiverse X and maybe the broader space, and then we'll touch on stablecoins and all that in the next step stablecoins, and all that in the next step.

Ahmed Serghini: 7:48

Sure, I would say that HATM started at the beginning as a simple lending protocol, but rapidly transitioned to becoming a DeFi ecosystem. So we built a lending protocol and along the journey of building it we noticed that we might need to also build a liquid staking Soul, because both products go in synergy with each other. After that, we also built a booster module, which gave a lot more utility to our token. Then we also took care of building a bridge from BitTensor to Multiware 6, with the goal of attracting some new liquidity and new users from the BitTensor ecosystem to Multiware 6 and also allow the holders of the token of that ecosystem to be able to use it in DeFi and afterward. So we focused on both, like the Booster V2 and the stable coin, like USH.

Ahmed Serghini: 8:58

So for us, like, the idea behind that is, like along our building, we always try to define what are like the key components that were like missing in the ecosystem. We started with the lending protocol and liquid staking, and then we also, like noticed that there was a need for stable coin liquidity, because whenever some new liquidity was deposited on hatom, like on the lending protocol, it was directly like borrowed by users and even though the rates were increasing, people like were ready to to pay those fees just to be able to access to that liquidity. So any blockchain needs a native stablecoin for us. Well, at that moment we decided to start building USH, so we defined the need and tried to solve that. Sorry.

Lukas Seel: 9:45

I didn't mean to interrupt there.

Ahmed Serghini: 9:48

No, no, no, I was pretty much finished. This is what Hatom is, in a way, like a DeFi ecosystem.

Lukas Seel: 9:55

And I think one thing that I think is interesting there is how do you guys think about, let's say, the broader ecosystem? You mentioned the BitTensor bridge and attracting liquidity from there. Is there any other sort of big models that you looked at with Hatom and you were like either we want to improve these specific mechanisms or we want to emulate this type of platform to provide this kind of service. To emulate this type of platform to provide this kind of service, how did you sort of go about building the product and then maybe adapting it to the ecosystem?

Ahmed Serghini: 10:36

So yeah, like I'm a huge believer actually, like for BitNestor, and I think that, since Ethereum hasn't been, you see, like a project, who provided, you see, like a real value, a real utility and something that has, you see, like that much potential, actually, so I think that it's a matter of time to be able to see it among the the top ranked chains actually let's dive a little bit into BitTensor.

Lukas Seel: 11:05

Can you give us a breakdown for users that aren't so familiar, Like what does BitTensor do? Where do you see sort of the problems that that protocol in particular is Soul? And also then, how do you link your products? Let's say to it You're on mute still. Yes can you hear me?

Ahmed Serghini: 11:34

Yes, yeah. So like in a really brief way, without going like into all the details, it is a project that offers like decentralized AIs, you see, and each project there represents like a subnet basically, you see, like, for example, like ChudGPT could be like a subnet that is building in BeatDancer, so any project could be like basically like one small project building on that ecosystem.

Lukas Seel: 12:06

And this is something you see. This intersection, I think, of AI and crypto is extremely interesting. Bettenzer is one of the first protocols that had a real idea of how to capitalize on it and has been very early in that space and I think has been rewarded. Is that intersection, which obviously is something that MVX has been pushing as well now lately with the hackathon, something you guys sponsored? We can talk about that in a second as well, but is that something where you see a big product market fit for blockchain in general, or what's sort of know like? What's sort of the idea why you're so bullish on protocols like BitTensor?

Ahmed Serghini: 12:54

Well, to be honest with you, I think that it has a lot of potential. You see, like, when we are talking about AI, you see like it is something too big to be, like controlled by big, to be controlled by a limited number of big players how I see the end goal for AI is for it to find a way to provide it in a pretty decentralized manner, and this is what BitTensor is aimed to solve. It's similar to bitcoin and fiat, like uh TAO is doing the same. You feel like to to ai actually?

Lukas Seel: 13:36

that's an interesting take. I've never heard, actually before, like this idea of, uh, let's say, reigning in inflation or inflationary uh currencies and likening that to the way that a blockchain or this blockchain in particular can reign I don't know control or fix some of the issues that BitTensor has. Is that something? Are you guys working with their team as well, or how does that? I don't know too much about the chain, like how's your sort, your relationship with that or the projects building on the protocol?

Ahmed Serghini: 14:13

We are actually close to a couple of players on.

Ahmed Serghini: 14:16

BitTensor Multiple validators For a while now, because we were investors at the beginning, you see, like more than one year ago and for us, we saw that as an opportunity because, like, we believe in the project and we defined a couple of issues, I would say, or things that the player or the users on that ecosystem didn't have access to because they don't have smart contract technology, which means that they were only able to hold the token and stake it. They weren't able to use it as collateral, to leverage it, to perform or use it in any DeFi strategy. So what we decided to do is to actually try to solve that problem by creating a bridge that will allow them to receive a wrapped asset here on MultiBerry 6 and to be able to put it in liquid staking, to be able to supply it as collateral to access stablecoin liquidity, short long assets and so on. So for us, it was a great way to be able to attract new, new users to multiverse.

Lukas Seel: 15:27

I think that's an interesting point to this idea of you know, with a startup like Hatom and also in a space that changes so drastically and dramatically so quickly, having this idea of like identifying problems early, seeing solutions early and then reacting to them in a nimble way that makes you be the first in something. And I think that's an interesting point, obviously that I had thought about that. The BitTensor community had very limited access to some resources that MVX had, to some resources that MVX had. You guys building on MVX already, then bringing that solution to that user base is very interesting. And how do you think about building out these products? And then also, we already touched on this idea of USH, the stablecoin that you launched two weeks ago. Congrats again. That's also solved a problem in this ecosystem. Let's talk about stable coins and over collateralized, decentralized stable coins, a little bit Like what you already described, this need for liquidity and different types of liquidity, but one introduce us to USH and then tell us what problems you were solving or looking to solve with USH.

Ahmed Serghini: 16:57

Can you hear me? Yes, sir, yeah, no, you got cut at the end, just to make sure I heard you completely.

Lukas Seel: 17:07

Oh, just two things basically about USH One, how it works, what the need was, and then what you're building, or what you're building upon, with USH.

Ahmed Serghini: 17:24

So yeah, for USH.

Ahmed Serghini: 17:26

Initially we detected a need.

Ahmed Serghini: 17:29

We saw that there was a really high utilization rate and really high demand for stablecoins on MultiversX and this demand lasted for a really long period, you see, all along the year. So for us, what we decided to do is to bid a stablecoin that would adapt to the actual ecosystem that we are building in. So all or most users here they own equal liquidity, so they don't own like stable coins and no matter the rate that we were like offering through the lending protocol, we were having like some challenges and difficulties in terms of attracting some fresh like stable coin liquidity. So USH is allowing users to actually use their actual assets as collateral, like EGLD Wrapped, btc Wrapped, eth, max, utk and so on and be able to mint USH at either 0% or at a fixed interest rate. So for them, they are able to leverage the asset that they are already holding to access this stablecoin liquidity and they have some flexible options that allow them to avoid being exposed to some high volatility borrowing APIs. So they have more controls over the stablecoin borrowing that they are performing.

Lukas Seel: 18:53

And let us in on the launch. It's been two weeks. How do you think it's going so far? Are you satisfied?

Ahmed Serghini: 19:08

What were some challenges, maybe, that you encountered so far? So for us, this is how the launch went actually. So on our side, we took care of multiple things during our preparation. So among those things first was the design of how the modules would interact with each other, how everything will function from a logical point of view. So for that we built a staking module to redistribute the revenue that we will be generating on the LP creators, which will allow us to attract liquidity in USH and make sure that it is stable. We took care of covering the way USH would be minted. So we had two ways One through the Soul protocol, using e-gold and paying 0% as a fee, or going through the lending protocol and paying a fixed fee but needing to supply other collaterals. We took care of preparing multiple mechanisms to protect the peg through soft actions, but also having a hard peg mechanism that always ensures that we are able to regain that $1 value. And besides this, we also partnered with different key players to make sure that we had the initial liquidity that was deployed at the beginning.

Ahmed Serghini: 20:29

So initially we had a high participation from the community At first. A lot of LPs have been created. Everything was going well at the beginning, but then we saw how the whole ecosystem was reacting, you see, to USH and the different modules, the different mechanisms and the arbitrage opportunities that it was offering, and what we noticed is that there wasn't a lot of participation in terms of the arbitrage opportunities that USH was offering. The fact that this participation was lacking was affecting in a bit the stability of USH itself, because the stability of the peg relies on a healthy ecosystem where all players are actually taking advantage of all the opportunities that this complex DeFi module is opening and offering to everyone. To give you, for example, a couple of examples basically, so this module relies on the S equaled LP to be like always balanced in a way, and something that we noticed is that, even though the arbitrage opportunity on that LP like were huge, people were not performing that and we didn't have like any key player who was having, you see, like a certain amount of equal that he was using like as a certain amount of equal that he was using like as a working capital just to increase his equal amount.

Ahmed Serghini: 22:04

Because, like, that strategy is super simple, direct and doesn't have like any risk, like literally like zero risk For them. What they can do is just like swap equal for S equal and stake it and then like repeat the process each 10 days once the liquidity is available, and by repeating this they are able to generate actually up to 60% APR. This is crazy compared to 6.5% APR offered on-chain through traditional staking, but it shows you the actual state of our ecosystem. You see, from that point of view, like another example is when USH, like, is de-pegged, what happens is that arbitrageurs, but also like borrowers, users they are like incentivized to buy it at a lower price, you see, like from the open market, and to be able to repay a portion of their loan instantly and make maybe like 1%, 2% or 3% arbitrage opportunity on that amount, just for being able to, you see, like participate in the arbitrage that USH was offering. But again, there was like a lack of participation on that part and the result is that there is like more selling pressure on USH than buying pressure and inefficiencies in the whole, I would say like loop that USH like is creating.

Ahmed Serghini: 23:35

So for us, when arbitrage were not taking place, you see, at the beginning, and people were not applying this buying pressure, so arbitrage, or I would say, redemptions, started and got triggered and, yeah, this is something that normally shouldn't have happened at the beginning, because this is a hard protection mechanism and normally the stablecoin should be able to remain pretty close to 1$ just through the soft peg protection mechanism.

Ahmed Serghini: 24:12

Because if we compare, for example, ush to the whole model, like the whole token of Aave or Dai, they don't have a hard peg protection mechanism but in their ecosystem the peg is actually able to be sustained just through the arbitrage opportunities and the fact that it can always be redeemed at a $1 value on their lending protocols. You see, and they also have a lot of players, market makers, that have like millions of dollars in working capital, that understand how the products are working, the fact that they are always able to retrieve the peg. And what those users or those market makers, those players, are doing is that they always look for a deepG of those assets and deploy capital to be able to buy it at a low price and then be able to actually sell it at a $1 value to make a profit.

Lukas Seel: 25:13

Yeah, it's really like a free money glitch if you have the capital to deploy. And I mean, I noticed like obviously I think you guys invest a lot of um resources in education as well. It's one like you. You have these very detailed blog posts explaining sort of you know what, what the how the protocol works. You have ambassadors um spreading the word. I think you guys reacted quite quickly, basically saying look, there's free money that you guys aren't making. Now I think we're back to the $1 peg, correct? Have you found those effective done in order to either educate, you know, the potential arbitrage users on the opportunity or just bring in more liquidity from larger players? Or how do you guys think about the sort of steps going forward?

Ahmed Serghini: 26:15

Well, for us, like how we've seen this. So there are multiple things that we started taking actions on. So something that we noticed, actually among the community, is that people were complaining about redemptions, the fact that they got redeemed. Those people, like didn't understand how ush worked and the same users were actually like minting ush and setting it, you see, like directly on the different lps, even though they were like incurring like losses during the process, so losing like three, four, five, even more, like sometimes it was like going up to c7 and like nearly 10 percent like slippage and price impact when the lps were unbalanced and this contributes, you see, like to activating redemptions actually. So, you see, so those were like some, some things that we noticed, like after lunch and on our side, what we did is we posed, you see, like minting, try to monitor the situation, try, tried to analyze like the ecosystem. At the moment when we stopped, like minting, we activated like redemption. So what happened is that, like the price instantly like got closer to $1 and always remained, you see, like at that level, and what we decided to do is to try to see how the model could be like optimized in order for it to fit the ecosystem where we were building actually, you see, because here, like, it is 10 or 20% harder, 10 or 20 times harder to be able to build, you see, like complex products and to be able to make them work. Like if the whole token of Aave was deployed, you see, like on Multiplay 6, or like itself was deployed on Multiplay 6, like it would not work at all. You see, like something that allowed us actually to maintain our peg and to have like a stable product was the fact that we thought, you see, like in advance, about multiple features and we thought about implementing redemptions and so on to try to have a pretty complete implementation.

Ahmed Serghini: 28:27

So now, next steps. The first thing that we are deploying today is a dashboard that would allow users to participate through redemptions from a simple interface actually. So it will be really easy to use. They will be able to see what are the top riskiest accounts, what is the maximum amount that can be redeemed during that period, like in terms of equal. They will be able to input the amount of equal that they want to redeem and the minimum APR that they want to generate on that transaction.

Ahmed Serghini: 29:06

So for us, it is like a way to be able to promote UC redemptions, to make the process even more effective, to allow the community to participate and to also compete with arbitrageurs in a way. Right now, anyone could be able to do that already by interacting with the code, but we are preparing this interface that will simplify and make easier the whole participation. Then, as a next step, we already defined a couple of implementations that we want to apply to USH, related to how it is working. So one thing that we are exploring and that we think would be a really great addition. So now we are going into the complex part of USH. Please don't hesitate to just pose me if you want me to explain something in more detail.

Lukas Seel: 30:03

No this is great. Keep going.

Ahmed Serghini: 30:06

Right now, when redemptions are performed, users, or let's say redeemers, are obliged to use eGold, send it in our smart contract, for it to be converted to USH and to complete the redemption, basically.

Ahmed Serghini: 30:21

So this action guarantees that the injected liquidity will be used as a buying pressure for USH to push the price upward. In exchange for this, redeemers are receiving a portion of the collateral of the addresses that got redeemed. So what we are thinking about implementing is, instead of forcing redeemers to only be able to redeem using equal, we will also allow the redemptions using USH itself. So when using USH, the redeemer will need to pay a fee of 0.5%, for example, and that fee can be a variable. So during this process, anyone with USH could be able to redeem USH, pay a 0.5% fee and be able to retrieve a portion of the collateral in e-gold. So the reasoning behind this and why is it important is to be able to create this constant demand for USH that will push its price forward. So now what we are seeing is a lack of participation from people who are already having positions in the lending protocol and who are not buying. Ush should be able to repay their loans at a lower amount. With this implementation, we are creating a demand for USH and it will change a bit how, I would say, the equilibrium is actually working.

Ahmed Serghini: 31:54

Because right now the USH price is receiving a certain pressure from anyone who is like using it and redeemers are only incentivized to push the price upward when ush is falling below a certain threshold and when it is like also profitable for them to make like the the most you see like revenue through arbitrage, which means that the actual state with this lack of participation, pushes USH to decrease to 0.99.

Ahmed Serghini: 32:25

For example, before arbitrage like take action and help push the price upward. So with this new implementation, what we are doing is actually incentivizing people to fight for those arbitrage opportunities from the beginning as soon as USH starts decreasing in price. So to give you a more concrete example so with this new implementation, whenever USH will decrease to 0.995, anyone would be incentivized to start buying USH at a lower price. Because for users, they would pay a 0.5% fee for redeeming USH, which means that any price of USH that has been bought below that threshold. So if they buy USH at 0.993, they can make a 0.2% arbitrage profit instantly when they redeem. And this implementation is actually incentivizing USH to be kept as a price closer to one, and for arbitrageurs to compete and anyone to compete to be able to actually buy USH and make the profit that they judge would be beneficial to them. Nice.

Lukas Seel: 33:41

I have two follow-up things here. One, we already kind of touched on this, this sort of ongoing education effort. And then the second one, like how do you think about that? But then also, how do you think about the intersection of education and like user interfaces? You're just, basically, we're saying're saying like, okay, we're making it easier, easier for everyday users, let's say, to understand the arbitrage opportunities by creating this interface. I know you guys, um won a design prize for for the soul website. Um, like how important is this sort of intersection of, one, explaining the products well and making it easy for users to interact with them and two, enabling this interaction by design?

Ahmed Serghini: 34:31

So just to add on what I was saying before, to complete the idea so redemptions will be open, but the amount redempted will decrease. You see, it will constantly decrease and remain pretty low compared to what is redeemed now through this model and the efficiency of it. You see, this is why it is very important the efficiency of it. You see, this is why it is very important. And to get back to you on the two new questions, well, I would say that education is really important. So, on our side, we have a pretty complete documentation section that explains exactly how the different modules are working, uh, how you can like take advantage, uh, of them, how you can like use them. In addition to that, like, we had a marketing campaign that was like pretty heavy, actually, like way before the launch of ush, and it lasted for, I would say, like since october, november, where we focused on threads, working with different KOLs, with own members of the Hatom team. We had multiple videos that explains exactly how redemptions are happening, how each module is taking place, what users could do, and so on. Yeah, the educational part is pretty complete, it is pretty important and we made sure that it was covered on our side too.

Ahmed Serghini: 36:03

But something that we noticed is that there were multiple users who were using the different applications without understanding how they were working.

Ahmed Serghini: 36:15

You see, for some of them, they don't read even the tooltips, like text or instructions that are written on the buttons of the app actually, and what it creates is sometimes people are not happy, but you see, they didn't took time to actually like understand the product like really well before. But I think that with time, people like will get like more familiarized and, yeah, we understand like way better what we are offering. Like we had the same experience with landing at the beginning, so people like not everyone was like like they weren't understanding how everything like was working, but as time passed, everyone like invested more time in terms of understanding, asking questions and so on and like they got familiarized with it. So I think it's a matter of time and dedicating like time to to to try to learn about that, and on our side, we're also always available on Telegram, on X Discord too. All the team is there answering questions and making sure to help support anyone who is trying to understand how any product works or who wants to use them actually.

Lukas Seel: 37:30

Great. Let's also dive into Soul for a little bit. I just mentioned um, the design prize that you won, and like the, the great website you have, um, you know, like hadham was was step one, or I don't really know how you think about it, like internally as a team. Um, is that something that you think of as the first step to having this broader protocol, or like one? What is Soul? What does it do? What problems does it Soul?

Ahmed Serghini: 38:04

And how does it relate to Hatom? Would you say yeah? So for Soul, if I were to describe it, I would say that it is a cross-chain lending protocol aggregator. So Soul is a lending protocol that builds on top of other lending protocols on the different chains. So you can, for example, see Soul being built on top of Aave on Ethereum, on top of Aave on Avalanche, venus on the Binance, smart Chain and so on, and it connects between them all so it will allow users to supply their asset on Aave on one chain to be able to take a loan on compound on a totally different chain without having to bridge any asset instantly yeah, without using bridges, basically.

Ahmed Serghini: 38:52

So I think that Soul is the most innovative product or project that I built in my life. It's the most innovative project in terms of lending and it is tackling actually all the inefficiencies in terms of liquidity among them. So it allows users to actually unify their borrowing power Exactly, actually, all the inefficiencies in terms of liquidity among them. So it allows users to actually unify their borrowing power across different chains. So you could supply some liquidity on Aave, truffaut on Multiway 6, have other liquidity on Aave on Avalanche, other on Arbitrum and so on, and still have like one global borrowing power that you'll be able to use on a completely new chain where you don't own any liquidity actually, besides this, it allows users or let's say that the whole process works in sync with the existing lending protocols. So we are not competing with the pioneers in terms of lending on the different chains, we actually work in synergy with them and allow them to receive more liquidity and increase their utilization rate. So for the end user, the whole experience is pretty much the same.

Ahmed Serghini: 40:07

If someone is interested by the yields that Avi was offering on Arbitrum, he can still get the same yields. He will earn additional yields that will come from Soul revenue that will be redistributed to users and, of course, on top of this, he will have instant access to liquidity across any protocol, across any chain. If I start sharing more about the different things that it is Soul like, I think that I won't stop talking, because there are like too many things that are tackled actually like through soul. Another thing that it will do is allow yields to be like arbitraged among the different lending protocols here. So people like will always try to supply among the lending protocol where there is the highest supply APY and then, like Trussell, they will be able to borrow. If they want USDC, they will just be able to select. You see the protocol on any chain that is offering like the lowest yield for borrowing stable.

Lukas Seel: 41:16

Sorry, go ahead. One question that I have there. It's interesting, right, because the protocols that you've built so far and it sounds like including Soul, they're addressing quite a specific market and they're Soul a bunch of problems specifically for for defy users, right? Is there? Um? Is there something where you guys are also actively thinking about how to expand the existing defy user base and bring in, you know, our, our parents, into this? Or is this something where you're like, no, specifically targeting this existing market, optimizing things, eliminating inefficiencies, you know like? I guess, the question being like how broad do you see the user base for Hatom and Soul becoming right now and maybe developing over the next few years?

Ahmed Serghini: 42:14

So how we see this.

Ahmed Serghini: 42:18

We consider that Soul will be able to have a bigger revolution than what Curve did in terms of any swap did in terms of swaps at the time.

Ahmed Serghini: 42:30

So our goal initially is to be able to solve like fragmented liquidity, to Soul the cross-chain lending dilemma, and we think that we could be able to achieve like way greater things.

Ahmed Serghini: 42:43

So initially, like we started with the problems that are already existent, but how we see Soul like in the future is we could see it or we could be able to integrate a real-world asset to be used as collateral for them to be able to access, you see, like loans in stable coins, in different like crypto, instantly, you see. So like the RWA market is in like, or let's say, the crypto market is insignificant compared to the RWA one and we think that this could be like a huge addition actually in terms of utility that will be opening, because once you think about it, we could see. You see like buildings that are like tokenized and that could be used as collateral to be able to take a loan in stables, for example, and to be able to get it pretty instantly. The most important thing for us is to make sure that the whole liquidation process is covered and it is being able to get executed.

Lukas Seel: 43:52

Yeah, it's very interesting to think about expanding the market in certain directions and also all of the assets right now, pre-tokenization of everything, I think, thinking about how much usage and liquidity etc. That will bring to the crypto market and to the DeFi markets, and how liquid these assets really can become and be used for all kinds of different things. So I think, yeah, that's an interesting thing to think about, like, especially in market conditions like this, and I kind of I wanted to talk about that a little bit too. This is such a volatile space.

Lukas Seel: 44:31

Obviously, you've been in it for for quite some time, um, but there's so much noise, there's so much drama all the time. There's all of these things crashing left and right, uh people, uh projects, etc. Going bankrupt and all sorts of bad things. How, how do you, like you know, think about this as a builder? Like, have you just grown a thick skin where nothing affects you? Or, like you know, what would you say? Like, how do you, how do you keep building through all of this and what do you focus on to to stay focused?

Ahmed Serghini: 45:06

so, yeah, like on our side, um, to be honest with you, no matter the time we're fully focused on building, nothing changes for us. We try to not take care of those things actually. So, for people who understand what they are doing, they know what they are doing, they know what projects are valuable and, yeah, for them it doesn't change anything actually. So for us, we build and this is what we continue doing, no matter the state of the market.

Lukas Seel: 45:49

What's your outlook, the time horizon that you guys usually think in, so something? I mean we talked about some of the adoption curves and that indirectly but for Hatom do you think in like you know, let's see what happens next year, or do you already have sort of like an internal roadmap, at least for the next three, five years, maybe even longer, an internal roadmap at least for the next?

Ahmed Serghini: 46:14

three, five years, maybe even longer.

Ahmed Serghini: 46:17

So for us, like, uh, no matter like the time in the market, we we always like, continue building and even in, you see, like the, the release of the product.

Ahmed Serghini: 46:29

We never wait for the right moment you select to try to release it.

Ahmed Serghini: 46:33

So for us, it doesn't really matter.

Ahmed Serghini: 46:38

For us, right now, what we are doing is trying to stabilize USH, and then our aim at the beginning was to try to focus on Hatom proxy and try to release it first before starting our blockchain expansion.

Ahmed Serghini: 46:55

So now, after the release of USH, what we decided to do is to continue the development of HATOM proxy in an early phase and to prioritize the focus on our blockchain expansion first, the focus in like, on our blockchain expansion, because this is like the best approach to make sure that Hatom is growing, you see, like in the short term. So right now, yeah, like, we have actually invested like a lot of efforts in what we are building, like in terms of complex DeFi product, but what we remarked is that their impact at the time is not as big as what we were expecting. We thought and we believe that we'll be able to have a way bigger impact with those releases, a way bigger impact with those releases. So this is why we decided to first focus on the cross-chain expansion of HATAM, on scaling, and then to be able to resume the release of HATAM Proxy.

Lukas Seel: 48:07

Yeah, interesting considerations and getting towards the end of the space, the time we have One thing a quick invitation for listeners if you want to ask a question or something from Ahmed, maybe post a comment or even a request to come up here. About the more general future and we already mentioned RWA is coming on chain, different things moving in the crypto space at a very fast pace now, especially on the compliance and the legal end. How do you see the development in the next few years, let's say for the broader space, not just your project?

Ahmed Serghini: 48:58

So I think that the more time passes, the more we will see new products, new applications using blockchain that are Soul some issues or problems that we have in the real world. We will see more adoption, as we've seen during the past nearly 20 years, and yeah, I think that things will constantly get improved and, yeah, we will see more innovations as time passes. So I think that this is just like the beginning for uh, for blockchain as a whole do you see an interfacing interaction of like tradfi really embracing defi?

Lukas Seel: 49:43

is that something that you guys think of as a protocol as well, like kind of preparing for institutional use, or do you think that's going to be more like a, a separate space?

Ahmed Serghini: 49:56

um, I don't think they have a choice. Actually, I think that trade fight is uh, is too corrupted and unregulated. So, yeah, they don't have a choice actually and and they're like.

Lukas Seel: 50:11

Is there anything that you guys specifically have in mind to either enable or embrace that? Is that some steps that you're taking, let's say, on the compliance team's end, or something to go toward as well?

Lukas Seel: 50:27

I'm sorry you got cut at the very end on my side, If you could repeat, yeah, no problem at the very end on my side, if you could. Yeah, yeah, no problem. Is that something like you know, saying, saying that's an ability, mean that you guys are already approaching, um, you know, actors in that space or preparing for their arrival in in some way? Or is this something you think like okay, we'll build the infrastructure, um, they'll come, they'll use it, um, and they'll have to embrace us, like how, how much? Let's say, interaction um, or or approaching of of the other side? Do you guys, um, are you guys doing or actively doing right now?

Ahmed Serghini: 51:06

so yeah, like I won't say that we are like building things, uh, toward this, like, specifically, our goal is is to build infrastructure that could be used by anyone, but what I said is that this is what we are noticing, this is how we are seeing things evolving, basically.

Lukas Seel: 51:25

And is there anything in particular that you are sort of excited about in this space, any new developments? We already touched on ai and and that whole um narrative. It's more than a narrative that that whole development um playing out. Is there anything that you're looking at right now in this space broader space or d5 space, um that you're excited about, where you see some real innovations and interesting things happening?

Ahmed Serghini: 51:54

so, uh, I would say that, beside like bitancer and soul, uh I'm not like really excited about uh, about any other project. Uh, like lately, like in terms of defy specifically, there there hasn't been like too much uh too much innovation. So yeah, those are like the things that excites me more that.

Lukas Seel: 52:13

I mean that's an interesting answer because I think that's also something where, if you, if you really manage to have this laser focus as a founder um and be pumped about your project or your, your projects and business in particular, that's something that will always um will always make you keep going. How long? Just a quick prediction for anybody listening to this later on a podcast. We're talking on March 12th Everything has crumbled. Where do you think we're at in terms of the market cycle and the outlook, and how does it affect what you're doing, if at all?

Ahmed Serghini: 53:01

so, uh, I think that there are like always some some crashes that take place before, like the bull run starts. So, uh, yeah, hopefully that this is like the into a case for us in during like this momentry this is, this is max pain, but uh, you're seeing a swift recovery.

Lukas Seel: 53:21

I, I'm, I'm asking for financial advice, blatantly here, actually can't give any but uh.

Ahmed Serghini: 53:29

but yeah, I think that we might be, you see, like uh during this period and we might be able to see like some way greener periods, so because, like we already had, you see, like multiple cycles who acted like in the same way. So, yeah, most probably, like this one will follow what was done before too. Yeah, most probably like this one will follow what was done before too.

Lukas Seel: 53:59

It's always good to hear from a real experienced trader who also builds DeFi protocols that things aren't so bad. Yeah, very interested actually to see how this develops, because there's so many chaotic movements, I think at the same time. Yeah, great to have your outlook on that Last thing, and then I'll let you go and get back to building. How would you say what's the best way to connect with what you're building with HADM right now? Best ways of really taking advantage? Best places to learn? Yeah, anybody listening right now? Where should they go and get started? And what would be your recommendations on engaging with DeFi for the first time, other than reading the documents?

Ahmed Serghini: 54:42

Well, besides reading the documentations, I think that the first thing that people can do and should do is testing everything on the DevNet, making sure that they get familiarized with the different processes, the different products.

Ahmed Serghini: 54:53

Make sure that they get familiarized with the different processes, the different products. Make sure that they understand how everything is working. And one thing is that people should not be ashamed at all to come and ask us questions, contact us on Telegram, on X, if they want to, and ask anything that they have in mind. Like the whole team, they will always find, like, no matter the time during the day, no matter like the day during the week too, we are always available and there will always be someone that will be able to assist them and help them during the process. So, yeah, but besides this, I would say that on X, we are constantly updating the community through some pretty detailed and important updates, so this could be used as a reference of tracking our roadmaps, the different big events that we went through recently. We are also available on Telegram and Discord. Our most active community is actually on Telegram. So if you need something, want to ask something, you can just send a message on Telegram and there will be someone who will directly answer you.

Lukas Seel: 56:11

Yeah, I think that's also an important takeaway. We touched on it, but I don't think we made it as explicit as you maybe just did. It's. You know, with decentralization comes a bit of a user responsibility. If you're trying out a protocol you know, learn how it works before you mess around with real money. Go on the DevNet, read the things that people are telling you to read, take that seriously so you actually don't get wrecked in the process. And I think that's an important takeaway and it bears repeating again and time again until people start taking it seriously. I think it's also probably something that is just a constant thing in this realm.

Lukas Seel: 56:55

For more complex and more decentralized protocols, it's just up to the user to really get familiar with it if they want to use it. Otherwise, just use the not so complex things, not so complex things. There's plenty of easy ways of just going on Hatom and staking your stable coins or something for an above average yield that you'll never get from your bank. So that's an easy way of interacting with it. But if you are dabbling with complex protocols, make sure you understand them before you do so. So yeah, thank you so much, Ahmed, for letting us in and giving us great background. I think, dabbling with complex protocols, make sure you understand them before you do so. So, yeah, thank you so much, Ahmed um, for for letting us in and giving us great background, I think, on um Hatom and and what you guys are building and how you're building it and why you're building it. So, yeah, appreciate you being here for uh for this episode.

Ahmed Serghini: 57:47

Thank you so much well, thank you very much for having me and, um, thank you everyone for taking the time to to listen through the whole conversation thank you, Ahmed.

Lukas Seel: 57:59

This, ladies and gentlemen, was helios horizons, episode 39. We had had a protocol and Ahmed sergini um the founder and co-founder of the protocol, and so um Interesting conversation. Thank you for listening. We'll be back this time next week. Talk soon and take care and don't leverage trade. Probably Bye-bye.