Speaker 1: 0:00

Welcome to Helios Horizons, episode 41, with Karima Digital. Yeah, pleased to have you here, looking forward to chatting, all things crypto content creating and diving into your journey. So welcome. How are you today?

Speaker 2: 0:16

Thank you, I'm doing pretty well. Kind of sad because it got cold. It was so nice like two days ago, and then, like the weather, just shot right back down, so I'm hoping it gets warm again no for sure, like I'm, I actually live in abu dhabi, but I'm back in ireland at the moment.

Speaker 1: 0:32

So, like, over in abu dhabi it's super warm, and then over in ireland, actually, when I back this, when I was back this time, like it's, the weather's been pretty good. We're starting to hit a little bit of summer, so, um, I can't complain with you. Like usually I can complain, the weather's not great over here, but this time it's actually been all right. Um, yeah, and you're, you're calling in from um America, I believe yes, yep, on the east coast, right under New York nice, nice, nice.

Speaker 1: 0:59

Um, yeah, have you been? Have you been based there? All your life grew up there.

Speaker 2: 1:03

I did. I grew up in Maryland and I still live in Maryland. I love it here, though. I travel, but yeah, it's cool. Yeah, I've been based here no place.

Speaker 1: 1:13

No place like home. You know, no place like home what I'd say. So it may be for, obviously, anyone who's in the audience, then anyone who's going to tune in after um, maybe like, let's have a little dive into um, karima, let's have a little dive into um, your world, your background.

Speaker 2: 1:31

A little bit of an introduction, if that's okay yeah, and it's so funny because it's like where, where do I start? Um, I'm Karima. I live in Maryland and I'm a mother, son is, son is five and we I enjoy lots of outdoor stuff, like hiking, archery. I'm just like I picked up archery last year and I kind of fell off. I'm picking back up. Actually, this weekend I start back again, so I'm super excited about everything with archery, and then I have like a really cute pink bow, so I'm also very excited about that too. And so, yeah, I mean that's like the, I guess, about me in general.

Speaker 2: 2:12

Right, and when it comes to, I guess, my history or like crypto, I really like people, I like community building, I like communities, and so I started to go to like crypto events because I wanted to work in tech In DC. Maryland is really close to DC in the US and so it's like driving distance, so I would go to DC all the time for events. And there I was like I'm going to get a job in crypto. That's what I really wanted to do. And there I was like I'm going to get a job in crypto. That's what I really wanted to do. And what happened was I started to host events because the crypto events were just all like happy hours and I thought that was like so boring to just sit around and drink all the time. And they were cool but they just weren't as fruitful as I thought they could be.

Speaker 2: 2:59

So I started to host events and after a while I got to grow that community to like the third largest community in the country, so like it was like New York, la and then, or New York SF, san Francisco and then um, dc. Of course, by nature too, because those are two very big geographies compared to DC is super small. But that was super fun because I got to like learn so much. And this was in 2018, 2019. So this was before the pandemic and when we were all outside and having fun. And as a result of those meetups, I ended up working at ConsenSys for about two years, which was a really fun experience, and I basically just expanded the community building I was doing across the East Coast in the US and then with different cultural groups, we will focus on onboarding people and things like that, and that's kind of how I got my start and where I started at in crypto. Is that a good place?

Speaker 1: 4:08

No, for sure, I think that is. I think that is a lot Like. We went from archery to like, wanting to work in tech, to community building, to consensus. So, like we have, we have plenty to work with plenty to dive into to start with. But, like, even if we go back to like 2017, 2018 and like or sorry 2018, 2019, and you wanted to work in tech, what was it particularly about? Like maybe the crypto industry at that time, that like drew you in because that was still like relatively early at that stage, like you know yeah, I mean I wanted, yeah, I wanted to work in tech in general, honestly.

Speaker 2: 4:41

And, um, my son's dad was like I was going to start this website to farm engagement and, um, for people who liked beards, like women, who like men's beards, okay, I was going to do a website for it, because on Facebook it was blowing up. It was like this Facebook group and it was blowing up. I was like, oh, we could just do a website that shows the beards and, like you know, have the random ads on the side and make money that way. So I called my son's dad to like scheme with him. He was he's my friend from high school to scheme with him about it. And he was like, have you heard about blockchain or bitcoin? And I was like, yeah, I have heard of it. He's like you need to learn about it. And so after that I like, I feel like I feel like I've seen one Andreas Antonopoulos video and then from there I was kind of hooked. And then at that point I was like I want to work in crypto and the reason why I decided that also was because I felt as though, um, it would be an easier field for me to break into and have more upward mobility for myself versus like me, and also because I lived in DC and I didn't live in SF or New York, so, and at that point, everything wasn't as remote, right. So, like I was like, okay, where can I do? Like and still be here in this area? Um, you know, it's so funny, at that time I didn't consider moving, but you know, I was like, what can I do and be in this area? And so, know, it's so funny, at that time I didn't consider moving, but you know, I was like, what can I do and be in this area? And so crypto, kind of like became that thing that I could do and still be in the area.

Speaker 2: 6:12

So I was working at an advertising agency for um political candidates at the time and I remember when, like, bitcoin hit 20 000 in 2017 and I remember being in the room by my we were like in a conference room talking about something he was looking around at everybody like, oh my gosh, you guys have no idea I was just so hyped, even though I didn't even have that much Bitcoin. I just got started in the field. I probably had $100 worth, something very low. I was just so, so excited. I thought it was so cool.

Speaker 2: 6:46

Like I thought it was so cool and after that, after seeing that, that's like really, when I picked up with um, more meetups and then meetups were also picking up, of course, you know how the bull market goes like everybody's there and when there's no bull market, it's like crickets. But that's what helped me pick up around that time and like that's why I chose it. I chose it because, okay, this has upward mobility, this is opportunity, and I was like this tech is super cool and I find it like very interesting to learn about.

Speaker 1: 7:19

No, for sure, Like it must have been a tough choice. You know what to be more bullish on, like men with beards or bitcoin, but um I think.

Speaker 1: 7:27

But, um, yeah, like, I think you made it. You made a good choice, like or at least I think my my beer game isn't great. So, like, I'm always gonna say that. But like, what was it? What was about bitcoin at that stage? So obviously, um, you came across that you were pointed in the direction and and then you started investigating it, diving into it and what was it like Bitcoin and the ethos and like what it stood for. What like drew you in at that moment to Bitcoin specifically if that makes sense and made you so excited?

Speaker 2: 7:58

I think at that moment, on Dreyfus Antonopoulos, like I feel like crypto now was like missing great orators that just tell the story, or like like his his job. He was not trying to like mlm recruit people to this scheme, right, he was just talking about the history of money and the internet of money and how money was started and then how we transacted with money, and I just found that so fascinating. Honestly, I just thought it was like super cool and interesting how he described it and it made me want to go seek out more information to understand how it worked. And I still have my notebook to this day of like me writing down like what is a blockchain? And like examples. And then also I have like all the tickers so embarrassing from the tokens around that time, um and so like.

Speaker 1: 8:54

With bitcoin, it was just like the dominant currency, of course, right, and then on top of that, um, andres antinopolis had a very heavy influence over my choices to explore more into Bitcoin probably has lacked like really kind of philosophical figures who are kind of really like pulling forward strongly, like the philosophical argument as to why things like decentralization are so important, why a permissionless financial system is so important and, like you know, for us, like obviously you in america, me in ireland like it's not as big of a deal because, like you know, we've never gone to a bank and like had our cards declined or are like like not being able to like use the financial system or experience or experience their currencies like hyper inflating and not being able to do any global trade, or not experience not being able to open a bank account.

Speaker 1: 10:00

And but for all these types of people who maybe are restricted in different ways by um the banking system and not not like just not like because they just want to make money from it, but just because they want to do their work, do their jobs, provide some value to the world, and they have no way to do that and be rewarded for it consistently and and without like um navigating significant challenges in their like native banking system, I think, like you know, there's a lack of that kind of philosophical ethos and at the moment it's far more about like speculative ethos and kind of speculating on price action of technologies and or at least it feels that way in terms of the narrative around the space, more so than you know, those stronger philosophical figures that you maybe had in those early moments where people were really kind of getting into Bitcoin because they had a really strong conviction in, like, the future of the technology you know.

Speaker 2: 10:56

Yeah, no, I mean like. Also, I would say like the financial crisis in 2008 in the US was a super, a big deal. It impacted my family directly. My mom was at the first year I was going into college. Things weren't as fruitful as easy I had. I've worked a job all through college, um and so like when in the beginning.

Speaker 2: 11:20

And you know what's so funny to me, what the funniest thing about crypto to me is the fact that in the white paper, in the very first page of Bitcoin, it says we created this and people always refer to Satoshi as one person, where Satoshi refers to themselves as we.

Speaker 2: 11:35

That just drives my mind crazy, the fact that the industry decided to plow it all into one person. The paper literally says we created a peer-to-peer cash system, blah, blah, blah. Right because of this and so. But like that, that was another motivation for me, because I felt like, well, this rug pull can happen again like it's, it's likely to happen again in my adulthood, so like I used to be able to get in front of it. So it wasn't. It was more of a reactive thing of from experiencing also that. But it's not like. You know other places where you need crypto now today, like back when Venezuela was having their fluctuation, and people still have this now in inflation in their currency, that crypto is actually a better, you know, system for them, and so it's not the case for us in the us.

Speaker 1: 12:27

There's no super big pain point that it's solving right now in the us, other than gambling addictions, but, like, um, I think I think like being impacted by by bitcoin I mean being impacted by the financial crisis was also a motivator for me to like learn more about it, because it was a call out on the very, you know first page of the white paper no, definitely, I think that was a motivation, even like I didn't now start delving into it, like more until a lot later, like maybe around, like 2019, 2020, but I definitely remember around that time, like the financial crisis as well, and a lot of people were impacted and and you know the kind of what you said you know we don't really understand the true power of it because we don't need it so much yet, or at least we don't realize why we need and the properties and the principles upon which it was founded.

Speaker 1: 13:20

But you know what you, you don't need something until you need it, and you never know when. The moment is that, like, those decentralized systems will become also important and also powerful. Like you know, we actually had a guy on in one of our previous episodes and we're going to get him on again, like maybe in a few weeks, and but we actually had to cancel cancel the episode because, um, the xx was blocked in his country because there were some like social unrest going on and obviously they didn't want people communicating with each other or whatever. So, and you know, like I said, like you don't, you don't need these things until you need them, like, if that makes sense right, right.

Speaker 2: 13:57

But then it's like at least you're in front of it, at least you have knowledge of it and you can be the shepherd for the rest of your family, because most, most of us are like the only ones in our families that are into this no for sure.

Speaker 1: 14:10

I'd be interested to know. I I know you made reference to like a notebook you had and about like tickers you were like taking note of back in like 2018, 20. I'd be interested to know like how many of those are still? Are still ticking around like pardon the pun, you know?

Speaker 1: 14:24

right but, like, it's probably unlikely to be, um, very many. Like you know, it's probably unlikely to be very many such the spaces so, like, fast moving and and technology is always evolving, but bitcoin has really like kind of stood the test of time or whatever, and in in terms of like. So I'd love to know a little bit more about like. So, obviously, we touched on you getting into things and understanding, getting on board with the ethos, the philosophy, all these sort of things, and then we go into okay, you wanted to work in tech and you start getting into like, building community. So I'd love to know, like, how you jumped into that and a little bit, a bit more specifically and in depth about like your journey and building eventually, the third largest community and, I'm assuming, bitcoin community in the country. It was blockchain, it was like blockchain community okay, beautiful, like, um, yeah, but like, I'd love to learn more yeah, I, um, I've been building community since I was like 12.

Speaker 2: 15:21

I feel like I had a facebook group that was like really popular for um for like roller skating when and I couldn't even roller skate, um, but I was fascinated by it so I got people together to talk about it so I could start to learn and like we would have fun and go skating. But like that was the first one and that was Facebook and I was maybe like 15 when I did that one online um, and so I've always liked and always know that me personally, I can learn from community easier than I can from, I guess, books or whatever. Like community is like how it an idea can be cemented in for me and I actually stick with me. And so, like there was this group called um it's still there a meetup called DC DC Blockchain Users Group and this guy, daryl, he's an old Bitcoiner. I wonder where he is today. He was like basically like hey, I had another group called DC Crypto Club and he was like I like the way you're doing the events. Do you want to just take over this group Because this group was bigger during the events? Do you want to just take over this group Because this group was bigger and I was like sure, and so I took over that group and I started to host events and like previously, the year before, maybe a year or two before I was working for Obamacare and basically I was working to help people get access to healthcare and my job was events and I was throwing like two events a week for like a year.

Speaker 2: 16:44

Like every week I was throwing like I was at barbershops, schools, like everything you can think of all wherever people where I was and that's where we will host events, and so that's where I was able to get the grit to be able to like push out like 30 events in a year easily and they are small, some small, some large, just really depends on like the timing and the crowd. But I just started to push out events and there was this law firm named Cogent who was sponsor and I really didn't need much Like. I only needed like two or 300 per event, maybe because I was just buying snacks and beer. You know what I mean Like I wasn't buying anything crazy and I was getting buying snacks and beer. You know, I mean like I wasn't buying anything crazy and I was getting a lot of the venues to volunteer their space?

Speaker 2: 17:30

Um, like a lot, and now it's a little bit harder to do that one because I'm not in as connected in DC? Um as I was before, but also, too, because a lot of the co-working spaces um, because of the pandemic, has shut down and then a lot of them have become. Their business models are different. I don't know, it's just the vibe is a little bit different. Um, I'm pretty sure I can network my way into getting some of them, like you know, some events, but it was one place, one of the places, that faithfully let me host there um for free, and so I would host the events for free, have the snacks there, and then I would get different subject matter experts to come on.

Speaker 2: 18:04

So, from from um, from gaming to like women in blockchain, to um how to how to make your first NFT contract, to um a developer school, um, like so many different kinds of stuff, I wouldn't focus on one thing. As long as it was blockchain and someone had expressed interest about it, then I would just go host an event for it, and that was like how I really built the community out and, of course, it being a bull run at the time helped a lot um, that always helps. I remember one event was like so packed, I'm like wow, price is up, um. But I think like really diversifying and like the topics where I wasn't even like how to build a minor um hardware, like type meetups, how to get a job in crypto meet, like literally any topic you can think of. It was covered between 2018 and 2019.

Speaker 2: 19:02

I was throwing events up until I was like maybe seven months pregnant and then I stopped because the doctor was like you need to sit down, actually, no, no, I stopped because I went into labor early and I had to like go on, like I almost went to labor early, I had to go on bed rest and so I stopped doing events at that point. But until then I was just hustling getting events and it was like really it felt easy to me to put together, it felt easy to execute and that's why it was fun for me. So it wasn't stressful putting it together or coordinating the speakers Some of them were panels, some of them were happy hours, some were learning sessions. It really just depended on the resources and the people who were interested, because I got people to volunteer, to teach, volunteer to speak.

Speaker 1: 19:49

It was all volunteer basis and like a little bit of money from the law firm to like just fund the snacks and then like so that's super interesting because, like, obviously at that time everything was still emerging, like you know, I'd say, the big, the community and was still very kind of in its infant like a lot of the communities were in their infancy and but I'd be interested to know, like, how was it going from? I'm imagining working on like the obamacare side of things there was probably a good amount of like resources available to you to like market things and then going to this kind of like scrappy environment where there's not as much capital available to like market and things. What was that kind of switch up like?

Speaker 2: 20:30

yeah, and so like I would say and it's so funny because I stopped working I actually left the government when um trump was elected because I was like he don't care about you know, like it was a completely opposite to his um platform. So I'm like, look, they're gonna cut this first. So I ended up working, like that's why I went to the ad agency in private sector and so like, when I stopped doing that, I of course got. When I got back into crypto, it wasn't as scrappy as you think because I was. I was meeting a need for people and I think that's what made it a lot easier is that people were really, really interested in learning and they really felt like they got something from the events and they also got to meet so many people and then I would listen to people like what do you want to see? People will request for me. Um, like what they wanted to see, they would request me, they wanted to speak. Um.

Speaker 2: 21:22

There would be like different organizations that wanted to get a platform and so, honestly, the energy was, as long as I was like meeting a need for people. People were showing up, um, and that need sometimes was just community. Sometimes a need was a specific set of information, like I did a zcash meetup once, right, like people were really caring about privacy, like it just really depended on what they really wanted. And I think that that's like sometimes with crypto now is that like a lot of the stuff that's built is not meeting a need, it's not really like serving a particular need for people, and so it becomes harder to market, and I don't think that that's impossible. It's just that, like you're marketing an opportunity versus a solution, and so that approach is just a little bit different versus. I felt like I had a solution to what people needed at the time. I didn't know, I didn't look at it that way at the time. I was just like, oh, they want an event and I was just, you know, hustling getting the events done.

Speaker 1: 22:25

But now, like in retrospect, like that's what was happening. No for sure I'd love you to even like touch, because obviously that's that's probably something you're going to a little bit more. But I'd love to you to expand on, like you, the, the thought that, like most projects nowadays, or a lot of projects nowadays, or even communities nowadays are not marketing in need, and like what that means to you or what that kind of like.

Speaker 2: 22:44

Go a little bit deeper into that yeah, I think, like, depending on where where we are in the cycle, has to influence um someone's marketing. You know what I mean. Like I think that, like right now, building community is the smartest thing to do, because people need connection, they're, they're not, they need um nurturing like they like in that space, as far as like being in tech, right, so like you're better off like building a community than focusing on an x following at this point right now. In my opinion, like I know you have to do both. Like I'm not gonna say do one or the other, but the community like becomes like your day one folks. They become like hardcore people for you and then you can build a community by meeting a need for people.

Speaker 2: 23:29

Depending on what your protocol is or like what you serve, it can be something very simple, you know it doesn't have to be very complicated, like if it was, you know, I would say maybe like a DeFi protocol that focused on loans and lending. It could just be like a lending community that talked about loans period and had experts come in and talk about loans for different businesses and blah, blah, blah, blah. You know different geos. Like that's meeting a need because people are still going to get loans regardless. They might not be a crypto loan, but when it's time they'll come to you because they're already in the space, and that's kind of what I think.

Speaker 2: 24:08

Sometimes we miss the bar marketing, because it always. What happens is that it's like a weird dynamic that I empathize with everybody in the Well not the VCs as much but the VCs have expectations. The founders are trying to meet those expectations and then it's put back on the teams to further meet those expectations and it all expectations goes down to a token launch and when you're building and optimizing for a token launch, it's just a different. It's different and you're not meeting any at that point yeah, you're optimizing for a token launch yeah, but that's most.

Speaker 2: 24:49

Most places are doing that because, on the application to be listed by a centralized exchange, they're looking at, your followers they're looking at, and so what happens is that, like, the focus comes into farming followers and because the products aren't innovative enough to get that attention, because there's so much in the market that the focus becomes farming followers, and then you, you go, launch and then no one's buying your token. Um, and it's just because you were optimizing for farm stuff versus, uh, actual impact. So you can, you can and grow, but at the same time you have to be doing the impactful stuff. It has to happen at the same time in order for you to have a good TGE and you have to give yourself time to not just rush into marketing the token. So I feel like what happens is that a lot of the companies, when you fall into the trap of token marketing sort of product marketing you put yourself in the corner where you have to perform in a certain way versus just really focusing on meeting a need, building a community and keeping people engaged.

Speaker 1: 25:58

No, I couldn't agree more. Like you know, like, obviously, early days in the space, like it was very hard for me to discern and some may argue I'm still not very discerning but like it would be very hard to discern between, like what token launches were doing and like what like kind of the dilution of the space in terms of like tokens for everything was doing to liquidity, and not only to liquidity in the space, but also to people siphoning liquidity, siphoning liquidity out of the space. But I'd be really interested to hear, like, because you've obviously been around a while and you obviously and have good insights in these things and would be interested to hear your thoughts on, like, let's say, how you feel like the tokenization of everything and, as you say, like products optimizing for token launches rather than products has changed things, even since you started back in like 2018, 2019, because you obviously were around at a point where that really wasn't as common back then, like you know yeah, yeah, I I'm not against the tokenization everything.

Speaker 2: 26:57

I think it has its place. Honestly I do. I just think that it's gonna be like a painful journey to find the place for crypto. Um, like, I do think tokens have their place, but sometimes, like, does it need a token? You know, that's the big question. Everybody always says that does it need a token?

Speaker 2: 27:16

and because of that, I'm more bullish on stable coins and some DeFi and privacy type of and identity Identity, stable coins and privacy, I feel like are the strongest use cases globally for crypto and those don't really need you to attach a token. No.

Speaker 1: 27:38

I couldn't agree more like 100%.

Speaker 1: 27:40

I actually chatted to someone yesterday and like saying that stable coins are just going to, I know it's obviously not like revolutionary.

Speaker 1: 27:46

It's not like oh my God, but like it is in a way that revolutionary like you know, in the context of things we were saying earlier where you know a lot of people maybe don't have access to like stable currencies and stable infrastructure to be able to like permissionlessly get their hands on dollars or euros or these more, more stable currencies that they can transact with businesses and they can transact with other people around the world and very stably and or with great stability. Is is great for people and it's going to be like a huge, a huge use case and then obviously defy will will probably flourish as well with it. If you think of like Forex and then like LPs for Forex will probably be crazy, and then it's a case of like people actually being able to participate in these and like benefit from um fees traded between like Euro and dollar, rather than all the rather than all the fees going to like Western Union or your bank or something like.

Speaker 2: 28:39

Exactly, exactly. I mean I actually like I love to see experimentation and new protocols and new tools and all that good stuff, but I feel like stable coins are like king right now. They just even for me, like if how I use crypto, my biggest use case is stable coins. I just earn yield on my USDC like effortlessly. You know what I mean. Coins. I just earned yield on my usdc like effortlessly. You know what I mean. Like and that's what how I use it the most, like of all the things, and I work in the industry and so that says a lot because, also, I'm not like as I do stuff on chain but I don't experiment with um like as much defy. I feel like I've had my fair share of experimentation where I'm good off that I'm chilling right now no, that's I, I'm sure, like haven't been around for like a long period of time.

Speaker 1: 29:27

So actually, with the experimentation, have you had any like crazy stories over the last few years of like um, any, anything that comes to mind?

Speaker 2: 29:36

that was particularly sort of like and you remember vividly, like you know um, I wouldn't say this is crazy, but, like I gave myself a loan, I use ave or compound compound to get myself a loan to buy a car with my solana in 2022. Then I forgot to pay that loan back and and so I collateralized that loan. Right, so I basically paid for the car with my own money, but I collateralized the loan with my own crypto and so then I used that loan to buy the car, bought the car, and years later I go into my ledger and I see all this CE. I'm like what the hell is this for? You know like it's like all this gossamer, gossamer. Where did this come from?

Speaker 2: 30:26

So I started to investigate and I realized that where it came from was that loan, but that represented what I owed. But then I talked to my friend who was really heavy in DeFi and he basically showed me how I can make money from that loan. So I use this tool called DeFi Saver and I don't really understand the full mechanics of it, but I ended up making like $2,000. Last year, him and I met up at a coffee shop and then he literally just showed me how to use DeFi Saver and we caught up and chopped it up and had a good time actually, and like I ended up getting $2,000 from his loan that I took out that I never paid back.

Speaker 1: 31:10

Unreal, unreal. You can't argue with that. Making $2,000 is always better than not making $2,000.

Speaker 2: 31:19

Same thing with. I don't know how this happened, but like someone kept sending me bonk, like bunk token, and I just discovered this. Like maybe last December. Like someone kept on sending me bunk and I have like I have like a maybe I'm probably not the same amount, no more. There's like a thousand dollars worth of this random bunk in my account and I had never even bought the token. And then I was like maybe someone sent it to the wrong address, but it was like constant deposits of bunk and I was like I have no idea, and it was going to my ledger at that, which I don't really interact with on chain.

Speaker 2: 31:56

I like leave it alone, um, just to be safe. And so I was just like where is this? That's why I love crypto. I'm like where did this come from? I'm not gonna question it, but like how? That's probably a crazy, the craziest stories that I have maybe maybe not a crazy one, but like those are two crazy ones where I was just like what is going on? I like this, give me more no, I love it.

Speaker 1: 32:22

I love it like it's always. It's always nice to hear the positive stories. Like you know, there's a lot of. There's a lot of people that like with stories that aren't so positive. So, like I'm I'm glad that yours are like, are good for you. Like you know, there's a lot of. There's a lot of people that like stories that aren't so positive. So, like I'm glad that yours are like, are good for you.

Speaker 2: 32:34

Like you know, yeah, I mean I was just telling someone this today too, because she's new, and I was talking to her about being crypto. I'm like a lot of the times when you see people like getting their wallets hacked and all that, it's because they put all their money in their coat and their hot wallet and I'm like, why would you? Because people go like I got drained. I'm like how do you just get drained? I couldn't imagine like they would have to be at my house to drain me. Like it's, you know what I mean. Like that's the only way that someone could literally drain my funds.

Speaker 2: 33:04

I've been in crypto for years. I know better. Once I have a certain amount I'm at a mass I start to sweat like it's too much. I know better Once I have a certain amount, I'm not a mess I start to sweat. I'm like, ooh, it's too much. Like it's like, and I'll transfer it over and out, and so, like that's just for me. I've knocked on wood. Like I thankfully avoided those kind of situations just by staying true to the ledger and then not overcomplicating when it comes to the ledger. Like, not making like because I did that before to the ledger. Like, not making like because I did that before my first ledger I had.

Speaker 1: 33:32

I can't remember the, the passcode, and it has like I'm kind of it doesn't have a whole bitcoin on there, but I can't imagine how much it's worth now either I'm like, yeah, no, I'm sorry, I'm sorry to hear that, like you know, it's like it is, I'm sure, so hopefully someday touch wood, fingers crossed, that like you do come across the way to get back in the seed phrase or whatever. But there was actually a guy. If it makes, if it makes you feel any better. There was a guy, there was a guy I know who, um, who bought um like four thousand euro worth of bitcoin at like something crazy like three dollars over here two dollars years ago, like mount gox era, and he saw it like. It may not have been that specific number, but he sold it all. He sold it all at like a 50 or 60 percent loss to give his friend like a loan for a tattoo course we were doing I did like a tattoo course, like to be a tattoo artist.

Speaker 1: 34:30

He made that decision like he.

Speaker 2: 34:31

How do you choose that?

Speaker 1: 34:33

because I think, um, I think, mount gox got like hacked and then, like bitcoin went down like something crazy, and then he was like, oh, it's dead.

Speaker 1: 34:40

And he was just like oh yeah, and like and there was another guy in wales that, like I I haven't heard of this in a while, but like he had something like it was hundreds of bitcoin anyway and he threw the, was it, whether? Wherever the seed phrase was. He threw it out and he's been trying to like, lobby the government in wales in his local area to let him excavate the landfill, to like and he's, and there he's, like he's got people to research like where, the, where, the, where the thing he threw away is likely to be in the landfill, but like he hasn't got he hasn't got approved for it yet. But I think he's still like, he's still fighting the battle, because he was saying like if he, if he ever finds it, they'll give him like, he will give the government or the local authority like half of whatever, whatever he finds like, but they haven't they haven't approved it.

Speaker 1: 35:33

You'd be pretty like, pretty sad after that, like you know yeah, damn no for sure, but like in terms of um, for in terms of like, even some of the things we were chatting about and I think earlier you were mentioning about, maybe, how to stand out, how to stand out as a community and you were saying, like community is more important than like, let's say, follower count, or being authentic and connecting with people is more important than like follower counts or like these vanity metrics. And obviously, like you grew your community largely with like in-person followings and in-person meetups. So how important do you feel like those sort of in-person events are to educating people about get technology, building trust in the technology, getting people their first steps in the technology, all these sorts of things versus the more digital experiences like a discord or things like that um, I would say so, like I feel like my following on twitter came from me doing like educational threads on crypto, like what is a wallet, what is hot, what is cold, like very basic, how to get yields, blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 2: 36:40

like very, very basic stuff. Like that is how I built following on twitter and it just stuck along and um, and so like that's how I got that one. But I think they they serve different purposes and so, like during the especially like right now, it's best, in my opinion, to invest in real life stuff, because people are just people who are here right now are really here to build. They're really here to get some shit done, to make an impact, and so you're going to meet by. You're going to, more likely, meet someone that can help you reach your goal or you can help them reach their goal, whatever that goal is, whether it's building a company, getting a job, what have you Like?

Speaker 2: 37:20

I live in Maryland and New York is about three hours and 30 minutes away on the train, and I'm going to be going up there, like on Sunday, just for the day day, just to do that, just to meet people to build with them.

Speaker 2: 37:32

It's like an AI crypto um, vibe coding meetups super cute, but like I feel like the in real life stuff is like because it's all who you know for a lot of things and so it helps you like make those online impact even better, because you can get signaling and help from bigger people or people with bigger followings if you meet them in real life, because most of the time they're super chill, you know, and so I feel like they both have their importance. But right now, definitely showing up offline, I think, is going to have a higher, a high ROI not higher because it just really depends on your goals, but a higher ROI as compared to like doing it when you know the euphoria is high and everybody's crazy and their Lambos are abundant and all that good stuff, because people are actually going to pay attention to like quality versus what's grabbing their attention at the time.

Speaker 1: 38:30

No for sure, and you're more likely. So you're kind of would I be right saying like you're more likely to find more serious people or more involved people in real-life meetups as opposed to digital, where it's not as hard, it's not as hard to kind of prove your authenticity or have deep discussions in these things.

Speaker 2: 38:50

Yeah, I mean I was saying this too earlier that prove your authenticity or have deep discussions in these things. Yeah, I mean, here's I was I was saying this too earlier that like okay, online people have a facade, they get to be all crazy, they get to act like how they want and you know how it is in crypto people are just unhinged, but in person people are super nice, like they're really sweet.

Speaker 2: 39:08

I've never been to a crypto event and felt out of place or like I probably was like overwhelmed. One time I went to like a builder, a base builder thing, and it was like a bunch of dudes. There's like so many dudes. It was ridiculous. It was like, oh, it was overwhelming and it was like packed, so like that was overwhelming, but like that really wasn't, as it didn't really like speak to like any anything wrong with the community at the time. They just needed more girls there, more. It was just so many dudes.

Speaker 2: 39:36

Like it was an intense but other than that, like I feel like you get to really get to people's authentic selves versus like online. It's just this thing you get to act and be like and like half of the time that's not happening in person, like it's not. It's never happening in person. No one's shouting slurs, just talking out their act like there's not really happening from my experience and all the meters that I've thrown, and so that's another advantage I think of of starting out or like making sure that you show up offline, show up to like the smaller meetups, because you get to really meet quality people who are like not oftentimes like genuinely sweet people and nice people no, 100, 100.

Speaker 1: 40:20

That makes a lot of sense and I'd agree, like you know from my experience going to events and things like that, that generally you would meet some great people and the conversations you can have and the connections you can make are like a lot more, are a lot better and a lot stronger than like just chatting someone over telegram or in a group, chat like or whatever. Like you know right, I mean you can buy.

Speaker 2: 40:40

But there's some people who I've met online, on telegram, and like we, just like one person I met, oh man, you'll be my, you'll be my cousin in real life, like that's. But that's not always the case and you don't want to always like, look for that, because people can scam you and it can get weird, you know.

Speaker 1: 40:59

Yeah, no doubt, no doubt. Like you know, it's even my like, yeah, I know, when you've been around a while, like you kind of start to, you start to like feel it out and you start to understand, like what the signs are and like how to protect yourself, stay safe online.

Speaker 2: 41:16

Kids, like you know.

Speaker 1: 41:16

Yes, yes, exactly but like, um, obviously, like all these community building things that you were involved in and like doing so well eventually led to you working at some pretty big places. So, like I'd love to know, like after maybe some of the community, the community building we've touched on so much already, but like after some of these events and meetups you were saying you went to work at, like consensus yeah, I worked at consensus for two years.

Speaker 2: 41:40

That was super fun. They were really they're fun. It was a fun company. It was very loose as far as, like my, my role changed like three times within those two years. Um, which was fine with me. They were always like within the same kind of realm, but like just different goals.

Speaker 2: 41:57

I went from like this community on the east coast, a community like across the states, to managing grants program for people building projects on ethereum and um. That was really cool. And and then I went to Celo for a while and at Celo they had a wallet Velour that spun out and I spun out with that wallet and worked there next and again like that was also a very cool experience definitely invested in my learning. Like they paid for me to have a reforge membership and reforge is like this. It's like this elite school for learning um go-to-market and product for tech products. It's some of the best education I've experienced online, not gonna lie, um, really quality. And so, like I was, I felt grateful to work somewhere that would sponsor me there for the year and help me grow while I was there. So those are probably the two biggest places I worked. I worked at an A16Z startup. It was incubated through A16Z but it definitely died before it came to life. I was there for like a year and that story is insane.

Speaker 1: 43:11

But, like those are probably the bigger companies that I worked with while I was in crypto a while like since I've been in crypto yeah, no, there's some, there's some pretty big companies anyway, like and obviously by the sounds of it, like you were doing, even when you went in there you were still doing a lot of like bringing your experience, like community building, events and promotions, getting out, meeting people, getting those relationships, and like helping people understand and learn and connect with each other and in those roles as well, but, like you were saying, like the ai a16z and like it was a little bit wild, anything, anything interesting or funny to look back on oh my gosh.

Speaker 2: 43:50

Yeah, the. The company was like a social token company, very cool idea, very ambitious idea. Um, it was like so it was led by somebody. I work with these two guys at consensus and so we were also at this company together like two years later. So that was cool to work with people I worked with before um.

Speaker 2: 44:11

But the CEO they they placed a CEO and he hired a designer and the designer and it was kind of like one of the situations like they had a bromance going um, because he really just looked up to the like, his, his opinion just meant so much like to him and the designer was low key, getting over um, real bad like, like getting over, like crazy. And so, like the designer was hired and he was the only designer. But he was like, well, we need an agency to do a logo. Like I'm sorry, if you're, you're a designer at a startup, we, you have to make the logo. What are you talking about? An agency Like you're, you're supposed to be doing all this stuff.

Speaker 2: 44:51

It's almost like I'm a marketer at a startup and I say, oh, I gotta hire the marketer to do my job. Like no, oh, I gotta hire a copywriter. No, why are you writing the copy like you should be writing the copy at your job. If you're the main market, you're the only marketer and y'all are supposed to be scrappy. So but what happened? Was that this the, the guy who was a designer ended up like pointing out the flaws and the missteps of the guy who was CEO, and and the CEO, like in the designer stage, the coup against him. Like basically he came up with a whole document of all the things that he wasn't doing right and he shared it with the board and then the like, and then so that was like stages, and then they had a meeting and like it was all discussed and then the ceo got fired, right, and then they made me ceo wild wild, I know so what was so?

Speaker 1: 45:50

what was that like then, like, how was it like chief entertainment officer, like man it was I mean what was it? What was it like, how, like, how was that experience? That must have been a bit crazy it was at that point.

Speaker 2: 46:04

It was like my job really was to just save the money, save the rest of the money the company company had raised like $5 million and at that point, when I took over the bank account, it was like at maybe like 3.1 million.

Speaker 2: 46:23

So he had burned through almost $2 million with no product just before. That is so crazy to say out loud Whoa, that's so crazy, but he did. Whoa, that's so crazy, but he did. It was like when I got access to the bank account, it was like 2.1, 3.1 million left and when I left it was I've only had burns like maybe another additional 200k because I was wrapping up engagements, paying off stuff, taking care of things that the CEO didn't take care of, um, and so like.

Speaker 2: 46:49

That really made me like and I had to end up firing the designer because I know he was mad that they didn't make him CEO. I know he was pissed and he was starting to like act certain ways towards me. He was being weird and he like took off on a day. I told him not to. I told him to come to a meeting. He didn't come. So I fired him and he was like so surprised, come to a meeting. He didn't come, so I fired him. He was like so surprised. I'm like how do you not comply with your boss and they take off, work and you start to have a job. I don't understand how that works.

Speaker 2: 47:18

Um, so I let him go and then he was trying to like put a whole document together again to me and the funny part about it was that he had did this before at block works. He had worked at Blockworks. Was it Blockworks? No, no, no. What's the Block5? Not Blockworks Block5. He had worked at Block5 and he tried to do the exact same thing.

Speaker 2: 47:41

I had a friend that worked there and her and I were talking about it and when I told her what happened she was like, oh my God, we connected the dots. It was the same person. He tried to do the exact same thing, but their team held, held it down and they didn't. He didn't unearth their entire team the way that he did our team and it mean, like you know, block by, as a way, stronger history and background and all that good stuff than like a brand new startup, but like this guy was diabolical and so like that was a crazy experience and I'm glad I experienced it because, like, I'm a very nice person, I'm not really mean or rude or I don't know, but like, when it came to it, I fired him immediately.

Speaker 2: 48:21

I was like, oh, you're playing with me now. Like this is not cool. And with a smile on my face on a Sunday, I sent him the thing. I was like I'm not. On my face on a Sunday, I sent him the thing. I was like I'm not, I don't think this is a joke and this is, this company is in dire, in a dire space and you're like, you're basically like just just showing off and it's just weird. So I just let him go after that.

Speaker 2: 48:41

Um and so that was I, basically the rest of my role there was to save them money and they were going to look for another CEO because they wanted someone with product experience. At that point, I had no experience building a product and the board was figuring out what they wanted built now at this point. So I ended up leaving after a while because I was like I'm not about to help you out, find my replacement. So I rolled out and ended up doing independent work. I ended up having a vending machine business, which was very soothing to have in, like a real life business making me money versus having to make money for showing up online, and I had vending machines at college dorms and that's how I was making money for a while. And then I got back into crypto um January of last year.

Speaker 1: 49:33

So I took like a little maybe like a year hiatus and I came back no for sure and would you say like, so obviously, like there was a lot of intense stuff going on and like you went from probably five, six years of like pure, of pretty intense like events, relationships, working with people, working online, like just always having to connect with people like every day, convince people, teach people, show up for people, show up with energy. Did you feel like obviously you went out and you were saying like it was almost like somewhat of like a relief to some extent to like have the vending machine business for a while. Did you like, when you took a little bit of hiatus, did you feel like almost like a little bit like burnt out like from the space and just from how hectic it was?

Speaker 2: 50:18

Um, I wouldn't say the space entirely. I would say my time at consensus and solo did not burn me out, honestly. Um, it was more so the startup life that burnt me out, for sure. And then I had to take a break and I was doing the vending machines and I also was um building funnels for creators on Instagram. So if you sold something on Instagram, I will help you sell more, and that was that's how I worked. But I was behind the scenes. With that, I didn't have to focus on growth. They already did all their growth stuff. I just did sales. And so that was like a relief for me to take a quick break from um at the time and like not have to be upfront and I could just tweet whatever I wanted. You know, like it was just very relaxing time, very cool.

Speaker 1: 51:04

No, I get you know, like it was just very a relaxing time, very cool. No, I get you like that makes that makes sense. So I'm interested now, obviously, like we're coming up on the hour, like we've touched on so much, like it was actually really interesting to hear your insights and your journey, and that you've been through anyone who's there, anyone listening, who wants to drop a question in the comments or request the mic and ask a question? Feel free. Um, but like what, since you've been back, like getting involved a little bit more and looking at what's going on at the moment, what kind of excites you like what? What excites you about everything that's going on in crypto at the moment and what should we be looking out for from uh karima in the next, in the next few months?

Speaker 2: 51:39

yeah, what I mean? I love the, the marriage with AI that's happening, the relationship they got going on. I really like I'm excited by it. I'm excited by simple AI agents with DeFi like not over, I don't know. I feel like people try to do the most with AI agents and DeFi Like, oh, it's going to trade for you, but like an actual trade partner trade partner helping you have better financial decisions with an agent I think is going to be game, just simple stuff.

Speaker 2: 52:11

I get more excited about how a consumer can use the tech versus the deep infra of everything, and when I mean consumer, I'm not saying my grandma, right, I'm saying like my friend who works for the government, or my friend who you know works for Google but hasn't dipped into crypto. Like I have plenty of friends like that who are like more than well capable of understanding but just not feel like they could benefit or pique their interest enough, and so I get excited about those kinds of things being built. And also I feel like, hopefully somebody breaks the mold of how creators can better monetize with crypto. Am I sure can really have some kind of like wind, but more so, like what is ai, can, what can ai do with crypto? Um, what can ai agents do with crypto? Can I have an agent?

Speaker 2: 53:16

I started building an agent like to does this, but I'm like I crashed out because I was like oh, I'm vibe coding it. I'm not a developer, but basically an agent that will pay um, a base creator based on how well the tweet does. Like automatically, like if you're a creative, you're a self-identified creator for a ecosystem. Like, what if an agent could just auto pay you and give you a check for doing it, versus, like you having to be validated or verified by something else, or you're not even acknowledged for the, for your contributions, or that acknowledgement comes through a kol dealer, so you know like it would have.

Speaker 1: 53:52

you could just get paid right then and there yeah, I really want to see you make something, because all these things you're saying are kind of like piquing my interest and like I would love to like see them unfold. Like you know, yeah, like I, you've great ideas and I'd love to, I'd love to see some of them happen. We actually had a guy on like about two weeks ago three weeks ago and a guy called eno and he's working at a place called sanctum and, like you'll, you'll probably be interested in this or to hear about it like um, essentially they were pioneering this new like pay-fi model for creators, um on chain, and essentially it was the concept that users would never have to pay a subscription for their favorite creators, but their favorite creators would be paid from yield from lp positions or staking positions, if that makes sense. So it's like you when you no longer want to subscribe, you withdraw your initial principal capital from the LP pool or from the staking pool. That is, paying the creator yield, if that makes sense no, that does, it is um.

Speaker 2: 54:54

Is that the same, the same thing?

Speaker 1: 54:56

on Solana. It is yeah, yeah, yeah oh nice, oh yeah.

Speaker 2: 54:59

No, I love, oh my god, their campaign, one of my favorite their airdrop campaign. It was so good marketing-wise. It was amazing. I had no idea what they were working on other than what is it liquid staking? But that's really cool to hear. I feel that way about NFTs. I want to be able to get out of my NFT. I buy NFft to a community, but like what if I don't identify that community more? You know what I mean. Like what if it's a community for new moms? I don't know, I'm not a new mom anymore, so I can just sell my nft to someone else. But this, this sounds a lot better than selling an nft to someone else, like just getting in and out your position so, yeah, I look into that.

Speaker 1: 55:56

that that's super cool, thanks. Assets, but people just treated them like purely speculative assets and it's only with a little bit more time and, as you say, more people coming in and learning about it and trying new things, that we're really going to see the true power of the technology and what it could like, facilitate, like you know right 100 agree no, I think we, we will, like we'll have to catch up again at some point.

Speaker 1: 56:20

I'll be keeping an eye and seeing, like what, what's going on, um, on on kareemah digital, and like seeing like what, uh, what's happening, but even like for anyone, any final words about what people should look out for from you yourself, um, over the next few months, or anything you want to.

Speaker 2: 56:35

You want to leave us with yeah, so I host vibe code like vibe hours tuesdays and thursdays from 12 to 2 eastern where you can just come through and Vibe Code with me, or either we co-work, like Pomodoro style, or we work on prompting whatever you're Vibe Coding together at the same time, and so I'm going to. I think it's pinned to my profile, it might not be, but I'm going to update my page today because I just started the office hours yesterday. But the idea is just to have a space to build and not build alone. But I'm really focused on helping people ship really cool stuff with vibe coding without having any experience, and so that's what I'll be working on and that's kind of what I'm leaning into is like building out that community right now sick like I'm.

Speaker 1: 57:21

I'm I'm trying to explore a bit of vibe coding myself and you have your work cut out trying to help me vibe code. But like I'm gonna, I'm gonna drop by for a couple of those and like see, can I learn something or build something? And like I'll definitely start with something fun.

Speaker 2: 57:34

Start with something like no pressure, and it just needs to be fun. You cannot start by coding with like a grand idea, or it needs to be like a super simple idea or something really fun, like that's the way to go, other than that you're gonna you're gonna crash out you're gonna be like f this in, like because it's gonna.

Speaker 2: 57:53

It's gonna have bugs, like it's gonna have issues, right, but if it's super fun, then you don't care as much. So you're just more invested in like learning in the process and actually like having a result. Yeah, you're just, you're just more invested in like learning in the process and actually like having a result yeah, you're just, you're just vibing, you're just vibing exactly, I actually like I.

Speaker 1: 58:11

I actually, a few weeks ago I had a wild experience with my like my first vibe coding experience where I went into claude and I said can you make a Flappy Bird style game with a Super Mario background? And the Flappy Bird is collecting Bitcoins as they're flying around? And it did it in like one shot.

Speaker 2: 58:32

Yo, you one shot it. That's amazing.

Speaker 1: 58:35

Well, I can't take any credit for it, but it's just like, because it literally one shot at it. It was just like, will you make a Flappy Bird game with a Super Mario background where the Flappy Bird picks up Bitcoin? And I was just amazed by the power of like AI, like it just really did amaze me, like you know.

Speaker 2: 58:55

That's so cool. You have to give yourself credit. You really did one shot, so hey.

Speaker 1: 59:00

Okay, I'll pat myself on the back, but I mean no, the ai didn't type itself like you had.

Speaker 2: 59:05

It had to get some kind of direction and it wasn't coffee but it's like you're building a skill, so like that was a part. It's like you went to the gym. You know the machine did the work, but you, you showed up I'm definitely coming.

Speaker 1: 59:18

I'm definitely coming by these and vibe coding hours because, if anything, I'm gonna going to feel better about myself. I appreciate it and thanks so much for coming on. Honestly, it was really fun.

Speaker 2: 59:31

I really enjoyed the conversation.

Speaker 1: 59:32

Thank you so much.

Speaker 2: 59:33

Thank you, enjoy the rest of your day or your night.

Speaker 1: 59:36

Yes and enjoy the rest of your day. And this was Hideous Horizons, episode 41. And today we were chatting to Karima Digital and we chatted everything from her early days building communities and right through to working with ConsenSys, Valora and now like running Vibe Code and community. So thanks everyone for joining and see you again soon.