Speaker 1: 0:00

Welcome everybody. This is Helios Horizons, episode 43, recording on April 16th and today. For a change, we didn't throw anybody in jail in Istanbul, and so the internet is working and so Khan from Ryzen can be with us, Very excited for about an hour of a conversation about all things from the law to decentralization, about all things from the law to decentralization to developer relationships, finding new people to build in WIP3 and what Khan is actually building himself. So it should be quite interesting. Our agenda is way too long. We're not going to get through half of it, I suspect. But first of all, welcome Khan.

Speaker 2: 0:47

How are you?

Speaker 1: 0:48

I'm doing great Lucas.

Speaker 2: 0:50

Thank you guys so much for having me.

Speaker 1: 0:52

Yeah, excited to have you and like, yeah, there is a lot to discuss. Very interesting. Three weeks ago, just to tell people a little bit more about what I'm referencing, the president of Turkey, prime minister, sorry decided to throw his only formidable political contender into jail and to suppress people talking about that on social media, shut down social media with it, and that prevented us from talking, I think three weeks ago. So, of course, some interesting things going on in Istanbul right now, I assume, but that is no longer impacting this conversation, but in a sense will, as we have to talk about decentralization, censorship and all of that. Khan, before we jump into all of this, I want to know how you got into decentralized finance, internet, the whole crypto thing, your journey. Before Tell us a little bit about yourself and how you got started in Web3.

Speaker 2: 2:07

Thank you. That is like one of the least interesting stories of my life, but that, like it all started in 2020, I guess, yeah, my cousin who is an economist, by the way, he wasn't like a coder or something, but like he wasn't even a trader, but he used to do these, like in the last cycle, there were a lot of these testnet campaigns for the users, for the power users for the networks, users for the you know, the power users for the networks, and he, he, you know, uh, he used to join these testnet campaigns and one of them, uh, was avalanche's testnet and because of the fact that he was in that campaign, he got like over 200k worth of avalanche tokens and he was bragging about it and saying that, hey, you have just graduated from law school, but I'm already making more money than you, and I was really jealous. I remember being really jealous. I remember not being able to sleep that night and the night after that, simply because I was just petty. I used to think that I was entitled to things, like all young minds do. And then I started looking into, you know, see, if there was more stories like that in the world as well, and what I saw really baffled me, because the monetary aspect wasn't the thing that really baffled me. The thing that was really surprising to me was how smart almost everyone was in this space. Like, and I remember seeing, I remember reading a tweet from 2020 and 2019 even saying that, you know, in every time period there is something that all smart people you know flock around.

Speaker 2: 4:22

So you know, I figured that web3 was that. I think, you know, web3 has the the smartest and the stupidest people, uh, in the world, like, you know, best and worst of both worlds, basically, uh, and that really, you know that really interested me and, um, I started looking into more and more on, like, how I can do things and how easy it is to just do things. And, um, I, I started with, um, I I started developing some things. Uh, you know, I I wasn't planning on, you know, monetizing anything. I wasn't planning on, you know, founding a startup or something. My days went by with me being surprised on how easy it is to just build things.

Speaker 1: 5:14

Let me interrupt you there for a second. You just graduated law school. You hear about this incredible wealth that people get for not doing much and not something that required special skill. But now you're practicing law correct, and then you're starting to explore Web3 a little bit more in terms of like okay, it's not just free airdrops and money, but it's also building and smart people and connecting with them and building in a new way. When did you, kind of like, start coding as well and how did that work with with the job you were doing, presumably?

Speaker 2: 5:54

Yeah, that, that. That was that. That is really what happened. Right, I was like I started coding in 2021. I, at that time, I was Coca-Cola's lawyer. You know, I used to work from nine to nine. I used to work like 12 hours a day, but when I went home, I used to just start my VS Code and just build things until 2 am, maybe 3 am, and then I would sleep and then do the same thing over and over again, and that was my life for like two years, two and a half years.

Speaker 1: 6:34

Did you jump straight into Web3 building or did you do Web2 before?

Speaker 2: 6:38

I started with JavaScript. To be honest, I just wanted to know what those, to know how those websites were built. Back then we didn't have any white coding, so we didn't even have AI models or something. I literally had to write CSS and JavaScript and I had to learn React etc. And then the most interesting thing about Web3 is if you know how, like you know, if you put in the work, you can, you know, rise very easily. That was really the most, one of the most interesting things about working on Web3. So I was like you know how can I prove my difference? You know how can I differentiate myself from these other builders? And that's when I started, you know, leaning into more and more coding.

Speaker 2: 7:33

And then, like in 2023, I started doing some community management, mainly in Turkey as well. Like, what I did was basically like I just DMed people saying that, hey, I'm a lawyer, I work as a lawyer, I work 12 hours a day, but my 9 to 5 is low, but my 5 to 9 is going to be yours and I don't want you to pay me, I just want the experience. I was talking like a straight guy in the 70s, like, just, you don't even have to pay me, I'm just to prove my worth to you and you know my life is great and but that really worked because I had the privilege of, you know, having another revenue stream of being a lawyer, so that I really, you know, took advantage of. And then, you know, when I started having this experience, I started working at Ryzen, firstly as just like a general, yeah, what was the first job you actually got by soliciting, by cold emailing projects?

Speaker 1: 8:43

Do you remember which the first one was?

Speaker 2: 8:46

I do. I do remember it. It was NIM. It's like a privacy reserving application. It's in its own network, nim, like N-Y-M network. I used to work there as, like a community member slash validator. I used to do some you know validation services as well. I still love them.

Speaker 2: 9:14

By the way, I saw Harry Halpin, the CEO of NIM, in Bangkok during DevCon and I went to him and I I said, like you, you are the reason I'm here. I thank you for all your work. And yeah, but like after that um, like that was. That was like testnet campaign slash, being a community member, but the like the freest, that like the, the most empty um project that I went on after that was called EDU, three laps, something like that.

Speaker 2: 9:49

On the ambition, I don't even remember why, but like what that was. But I just sent a message to the community manager saying that, hey, like I've been watching you guys and I would love to invest in you guys, but I want to work with you, regardless of what I want to invest in or not. And they were like hey, we're not gonna pay you, we don't even know you, we don't care if you exist. And I was like, just give me the turkish telegram channel. And you know, leave me alone. And, and that they did. And and when they launched their own tokens, they surprised me by giving me a bunch of bunch of tokens. So I was like, wow, wow, I sincerely didn't expect that. And I was like, oh man, like they don't know that I didn't check the Telegram group for two months, like I didn't work that hard, like I'm good at like cold outreach, but like I wasn't that good in doing the actual work.

Speaker 2: 10:46

So, yeah, after that, you know, after I had my tokens, after I had some experience, then, you know, like my now founder reached out to me saying that they wanted to create something that is called Ryzen. And you know, we started talking back and forth. And in 2023, I became at DevRel and I started teaching Solidity and, you know, introduction to Web3, mainly in Kenya, nigeria, nepal and India. Like those were the demographic reasons that I was, you know, teaching solidity and, um, after that, you know, one thing led to another. Basically, what I did was I, I tried to. You're still.

Speaker 1: 11:37

You're still working as a lawyer here. Yeah, this is all still nine.

Speaker 2: 11:41

Nine to five, five to nine, yeah, that, yeah, at that. I'm still working as a lawyer. Like, I'm still at the office from nine to seven and at seven my classes would start and I would, you know, go to this meeting room in that law firm and I would teach Solidity to Kenyan kids. And, you know, by 9 pm, or sometimes 10 pm, I would, you know, leave the office, you know, one hour commute. At 11 am, or sometimes midnight, I would be in bed trying to learn more and more about how to build. Yeah, like, all of my girlfriends left me at that time, and that is understandable. And that went on for like four or five months and then I was like, ok, like I clearly don't want to be a lawyer, I clearly don't think that lawyers are not that I'm sorry if there's any lawyers in this space, but it was clear to me that lawyers are not that well-rounded or maybe bright.

Speaker 2: 12:50

And in Web3, everyone is so enthusiastic, everyone is screaming at each other hey, how are you? Let's do something together. And I thought to myself hey, I don't want to be a lawyer, I don't want to practice law, I don't believe in it. And I think everyone saw why in the last month in Turkey, why you don't want to believe in law in Turkey. So I just reached out to my founder, co-founder of Rise and Gulcan, saying that you know what? I don't want to work part-time for you guys, I want to work full-time, I want to enhance developer experience and I want to manage basically everything that you want to send to my way. And you know, thankfully she agreed and that was the first time that I had a full-time, web-free job and since then, you know, I'm still working 12 hours a day, but it's mainly because I want to. Right now I don't practice law. I have a few cases that are open right now, but I'm just trying to win them as fast as possible so that I don't have to go to any courtroom, you know, ever.

Speaker 1: 14:10

Are they still open from your previous jobs or engagements since you took on the full-time or did you take on anything else since you joined RISD?

Speaker 2: 14:20

Yeah, the former, like. I have like two or three cases open right now and one of them was the first case that I have ever took in 2021, like the beginning of 2021. The week that I got my lawyer's license, I had booked my first client and his case is still going on. I know that he's going to lose, but you know, that's just business.

Speaker 1: 14:49

I'm just waiting for the day he loses A good illustration of how much slower law works than Web3, right.

Speaker 2: 14:57

Exactly.

Speaker 1: 14:58

Like the things that have happened and transformed since that day in those four years in Web3, and you're still on the same case in this law case. That's crazy. That's funny to think, yeah that's actually you know.

Speaker 2: 15:16

That is a great example of the comparison between you know law in Turkey and you know privacy-reserving applications such as Web3. We are talking about 600 milliseconds of finality time. We don't even like the Bitcoin's finality time. Oh, 10 minutes, I don't care. We have been shit-talking Ethereum or Solana for years just because of the finality time not being instant enough.

Speaker 2: 15:48

And, like in Turkey, you know cases like if your case takes less than four years, you are the luckiest in the world. I haven't. I have never seen like a proper case you know ending in. You know three or four years. By the way, like I have my own cases that I am a defendant as well. Like that is like that. That's like an inherent case, but it has been going on since 2011. So that way you can make that comparison and that way you can judge that hey, in law, people are not that bright. There has to be a way to expedite things, but no one is bothering anyone and everyone's like you know what. We can go to trial. When we go to trial, no big deal. Like they they are. They all act like um. You know junkies. Basically, you know weed infused junkies. Uh and yeah, like um I I still have some cases, but I I don't tend to them. I have a friend that I used to take cases with. He's managing them.

Speaker 2: 17:10

I'm just there for the paycheck when the time comes, basically, and right now, you know, I'm working as a DRL and a BD at Ryzen, managing all the partnerships and opportunities that we bring to the builders. Partnerships and opportunities that we bring to the builders and apart from that, I try to shitpost on Twitter whenever I can. And I also have a few projects with my team that are being developed right now, including this project that has been accepted to the growth games in multiverse x. Uh, it's a working title, but the initial name was extract uh. The name was chosen before the extracting value from the user's narrative uh were born. So we are we are still thinking of a new name, but it's basically a solidarity to Rust transpilers.

Speaker 2: 18:07

I'm working as a full-time in bringing more opportunities to builders. So when we started working with Multiverse X in, I want to say, november last year, we saw that there are a lot of opportunities on Multiverse X that is open to builders, but the EVM developers that are in our network cannot go and, you know, basically benefit from them. They have to learn a whole different technology and they would rather, you know, go to any other EVM-compatible chain and, you know, try to make it there. And that's when I started realizing that problem and wanted to solve it as soon as possible. And, yeah, and you know, my team and I are still, you know, trying to make that a reality for all evm builders to be able to build on multiverse x and I want to.

Speaker 1: 18:59

I want to expand on that in a little bit kind of the solving problems and solving problems for different people. I want to quickly go back and challenge you on the sort of law part first. It's like in what you're doing, the background in law must still come in, you know, in a good way. Now, right, like we discussed about the things that you really want to avoid in this new world that you're in and the reasons that you're in being the frustrations with how slowly things move, with how bureaucratic and all of these things, the spaces. But what kind of lessons from your experience in law do you still get to kind of apply in this new field?

Speaker 2: 19:43

Yeah, that's an awesome question. Wow, I have never thought about it. I guess I could say you know, in law you have to be as professional as you can, you have to make everything white glove, and that really puts a protective layer on the things that you do. And in Web3, you know, like I said, there are a lot of smart people but there are also a lot of stupid people with no professional, you know, guidance whatsoever.

Speaker 2: 20:13

So when you are a person who came from this law background, you realize who you want to avoid and who you want to follow. Basically Because you know, when you send an agreement to someone, if they don't read it, you probably don't want to do any business with them because they're not that well-rounded. And there is an opposite side of that as well, because lawyers are not problem solvers. Lawyers are problem finders, because we don't deal with happy people. No one comes to a law office and say, hey, I'm so happy today, let's make it in writing and let me sign it. Like that doesn't happen. Like a lawyer gets paid because the person that is in front of him is unhappy and feels cheated.

Speaker 2: 21:07

So, as a lawyer, what you want to do is you want to, you know, enhance the potential of that problem, you know as much as possible so that you can get paid as much as possible. So you know, in all of my lawyering years of like three years or maybe three and a half years I I just you know found problems after problems, and in web3 that is like a career suicide. You don't have to you, you, you like that that's. That's something that that you can apply to any kind of setting. But, like you certainly don't want to be the guy in that meet call saying that there's this problem and there's that problem, and I'm just a problem finder. You can solve them yourselves, my work is done. You can't do that in Web3 because you have to be really dynamic. You have to find the problem, solve it and then make the story that you can talk about in that side event or something. You have to be your own boss and that's the thing that was lacking in my lawyer friends.

Speaker 1: 22:21

Nice. Yeah, I think some really valuable insights. Problem finding versus problem solving is so interesting. Let's talk about the problems you're solving with Ryzen and who you're kind of addressing. You have the blockchains that come to you. So maybe in one word or one sentence, first introduce what Ryzen does and why it exists, and then what problems you're solving there. And again, I would say, probably two distinct groups, right, the developers hungry to learn, and then the blockchains hungry for developers. Give us a little bit of an intro to Ryzen and what you guys do and what problems you're addressing and how.

Speaker 2: 23:10

Yeah, yeah, let me get. Let me, uh, you know, tell you the elevator pitch that I have done like three times today, like, or, and every day, um, yeah, like ryzen. Um is ryzen educates, incubates and accelerates ecosystems at scale. We mainly work with leading protocols such as MultiverseX, solana, sui, aptos, stellar, agoric, stacks and a couple of other ones, and what we do is we create, maintain and enhance, developer ecosystems because of the simple fact that blockchains and the foundations that manage them don't know how. That is a very, very niche profession, so I'm just going to quickly start with the blockchains. Then I'm going to go over to the builders, because that is a wider subject. So, when it comes to blockchains, to be honest, every single blockchain asks for the same people and every single blockchain don't doesn't know how to reach them. And if they do, that is a worse, worse thing to consider, because they probably got it wrong.

Speaker 2: 24:25

Because when you work at a blockchain, I guess you always think let me worry about the technicality of things. If my chain is working, then people will come. And if you have ever founded a business or something, even if it was just like a lemonade stand. You would know that that's not the case. People are not like the customers, like the users are not going to come to you just because you are one of 50 blockchains with over $100 million of market cap. That's like, obviously you know 50 is not that big of a number. Like, obviously you know 50 is not that big of a number. But when you consider that there's only you know a few Web3 developers in space, then you realize that. Then you realize how competitive this space is.

Speaker 2: 25:14

Every blockchain wants founders for them to create businesses on their chain, but they don't do anything about it because they don't know how. They just have their KPIs in their internal docs, saying that they want 1,000 projects with 10,000 developers or something, and they just want these KPIs getting filled. I'm not talking about you know everyone. I'm just you know um, make you know um, drawing a picture of this stereotype. A lot, of, a lot of ecosystems do that, and when you determine a false kpi, like a game, like a gamifiable kpi, then you know, uh, you're not going to survive, your blockchain is not going to survive, and um. So that's what we do. Basically, we want to steer the ship to the correct way for a self-sustaining and self-expanding ecosystem.

Speaker 1: 26:20

Maybe let's linger on this and then go to what the builders actually want. But what are some things that you guys have found is really effective in both, like in identifying the correct people for the correct blockchains? Are there different, let's say, target audience for different blockchains? Is it like all you know similar, like what are some of the lessons learned from your work at Ryzen that you know things that actually work, ways to really target and reach the right audience, or any audience at all, and sort of the. You know the things that blockchains get wrong but that we can perhaps learn from, either as people at foundations or developers at foundations, or also just projects. You know builders trying to find other co-founders or developers for their teams.

Speaker 2: 27:18

Yeah, yeah. So the problem starts when, like before, you hire your first dev route. The problem starts when your marketing team creates their first UTM strategy. Often than not, you know, a lot of blockchains want to portray themselves as a certain way, and what we do is developer marketing as well. And if you portray yourself as this exclusive community that doesn't need anyone and doesn't want anyone like, if you don't literally open your open your arms and say you know, you know, come to our community, then you're not going to succeed, in my opinion.

Speaker 2: 27:59

Um, a lot of blockchains want to seem as this, cool and, you know, exclusive, uh, you know um club, but that that's, that's, that's marketing's fault. And after we hired devrel, that devrel is being, you know, onboarded, with this marketing team saying that you know, we want to be the next microsoft. Uh, oh, man, you're not going to be the next microsoft. You have a, you know, monthly active user of 50 000 people and that's, that's nothing. Uh, like, that's, that's not, that's not how you 50 is high in web 3 but, yeah, yeah, it is high.

Speaker 2: 28:34

It is high, but you know, um, you know what? Yeah, let's make this example look like 5k or something, or 2k, I don't know. Like. What I'm trying to say is, um, the. The game has been set a long while ago and there has to be a team that can change things. Basically. So, just to give you an example, a lot of blockchains, what they do is they hire this Derev, they hire this GTMP person, an ecosystem person that has these Google Sheets, and they tell them to you know, grow this spreadsheet by 25% at the end of this year, and that's really it.

Speaker 2: 29:25

But what you want to do is you want to be a user, you want to be a developer, you want to be someone from that particular project, and that way, you will realize something that most blockchains do not realize. You want to have friends. This is not a profession to do alone. You want to have as many friends as you can, and that's not a business advice. That is like a personal advice. You want to have as many friends as you can, and these foundations should be their friends, because if you just, you know, minimize everything to the technicalities, then there is going to be a definitive, you know ranking of these blockchains and everyone's going to pick the first one from looking at the users, looking at the TPS or something. But what's going to happen to the other 49 blockchains, right? So if you're not already the biggest blockchain, then you have to pivot that GTM to something that is more personal, because, like Scorsese says, personal is the best kind of art and personal is the best kind of creating a community of people, because it is more art than science.

Speaker 2: 30:47

So what you want to do is basically and that's what we try to achieve at Verizon with our partners as well you want to be the developers' friends and hold their hands until they let go, not you. So you know. What you want to do is you want to explain to them why you want to build on Multiverse X, why you should care about it. It's just an infrastructure man, I just want to, you know, go outside and have fun and meet. You know people, and then your real friend should be like no, no, no, just you know. Okay, you can go, but you know, let's talk tomorrow, let me tell you why you should build, why you should care about that particular chain, and then you know, and then you want to tell them how they can build on that chain and you want to tell them what they can expect in three months, in six months, just just like a you know, just like a supportive friend, and after they, you know, create their projects.

Speaker 2: 31:43

You still don't let go until they let go. And you want to. Basically, you want to connect them with the VCs. You know, get them sponsorships to go to flagship events. And you know you want to connect them with the VCs. You know, get them sponsorships to go to flagship events. You know you want to help them in their hackathon. You want to be their wingman when it comes to these. You know, irl events, etc. You want to be their support, and support doesn't end until the supportee says that it should.

Speaker 1: 32:08

Yeah, super interesting. I mean, I have a question right there which is, like the people that you find are coming to Ryzen right now, the builders, I mean the developers is that like, are they coming from a particular background? Is there any patterns that you see where there's like a lot of you know people from engineering that have engineering degrees, is a lot of people that come from all kinds of different backgrounds, and then again, like what, what are they looking for? What is? What is it that attracts them initially to to Web3 and to building?

Speaker 2: 32:44

here? Yeah, that is a great question and let me tell you a little bit, like a short story, about that. In March 2024, for two months, I conducted this technical writing boot camps at Ryzen, with the help of you know, with the partnership of Animoca Brands and Open Campus, with the help of you know, with the partnership of Animoca Brands and Open Campus, and in like day one, I told my you know team members, saying that, you know, I want to know more about these people, I want to be their friends. I have 170 people that are right now, you know, in this boot camp. I don't know if I'm going to see every single one of them, but I will try to, and after two months, I had been friends with, you know, more than half of them, like more than 100 people who are interested in being a technical writer, who are interested in being a content creator in this space, and what I saw was, you know, really baffled me because, like, when you ask them about their story, they talk nonstop, like someone who was deprived of that interaction See what I mean. Like they tell me all about their days, they tell me all about their stories and, you know, just to give you an example, I had one person I don't remember her name, I guess it was Neha or something and she was in Pakistan, in a village that was occupied by Taliban.

Speaker 2: 34:24

Like she was literally in, like she was being governed by Taliban, and she used to. You know, come to all of my workshops, governed by Taliban, and she used to. You know, come to all of my workshops. Uh, you know, and I would be. You know I would be goofing around, you know, teaching people how to use OBS, how to use low video to film yourself, you know, et cetera. And and she would you know, uh, you know, watch me and watch recordings. Um, so I can.

Speaker 2: 34:49

I can safely say that there are not indefinite types of people. There are a lot of types, but these are not indefinite, basically. So what I would say is these are all my observations, by the way, but when you come from a place that is a third world country, you come off as like a hungrier person because you know how inflation works. You have been raised in this country with over 100% yearly inflation. You have seen your mother crying about how she couldn't put food on the table, and then you get reached out from some guy in Turkey that just wants to hear your side of the story and can probably, you know, hook you up with an opportunity. And that's what happened as well with one of my students in Kenya.

Speaker 2: 36:04

One of our partners told me that they were looking for a content creator based in Kenya, and I like me just being in, like a guy guy, you know, living in Turkey uh, you know, decided to, you know, connect these and this employer with my students, and what happened was a person from Kenya started working and started getting paid in US dollars, and I think that, you know, um, I think that is beautiful and I think that is the high that I chase, basically. But also I look into the European builders as well, like from first world countries. They're good as well. They're great at, uh, creating a startup. Uh, they're not that great with, uh, like, profiting, like maximizing profit. They're not that hungry, um, so, like I, I I can't compare, uh, you know, builders from india with builders from, I don't know, like france or something that that is a wildly different experience. So I try to work with the hungriest of hungry developers so that I can bring the most valuable opportunities to them.

Speaker 1: 37:25

Yeah, I think those regional differences are incredibly interesting too. I mean, recently, as you know right, with X Alliance, we've we've done some events in in Nigeria, um now kind of branching out to India next, um, very much you know, um also with your help and and I think that's it's so interesting to see the difference in in the culture um there and the difference that these opportunities really make in people's lives. I really think this was something I wrote down earlier when you were talking, like this idea of merit-based international, like a global market where there's really incredible growth opportunities for anybody willing to put in the work. Right, and still saying like it's important to note here that not everybody's opportunities are going to be similar. Right, because you know, let's say, in Nigeria you barely have internet access sometimes. Right, so it's way more difficult to have an education in engineering or anything that requires a stable internet connection.

Speaker 1: 38:32

Right, you might live in a village that has power outages all the time, or you might not even have power half the time unless you have a generator. How many people can afford a generator, etc. Etc. Right, but the population there or the people there are incredibly eager to explore these opportunities and I think what you're saying, right, like the hunger that exists there, versus like, okay, well, I'm from france, I'm from germany, whatever I have, I have free health care, I have a lot of good social services, which is all great, right, um, but certainly the, the different, um, the differences, the regional differences are very interesting. Have you have you seen like particular communities or particular differences, um, like that um across the globe, and like what, where do you think are sort of the most interesting hubs of up-and-coming web3 talent right now?

Speaker 2: 39:27

yeah, um, I still still get messages from an entrepreneur that built his own game. I met him in Bangalore, india, at the beginning of December and he's been messaging me weekly on. You know, have you heard about a new opportunity? I want to pitch my project to different VCs. You know what kind of chains could accept me, et cetera. He's been messaging me weekly and I always try to answer him. That's the drive that would really enhance the ecosystem as well.

Speaker 2: 40:09

I think the hungrier the developer is, the better the ecosystem is, basically. I think you know, the hungrier the hungry developer is, the better the ecosystem is, basically, in my opinion. So, when I look at these differences between developers, I immediately look into Asia and Africa and, like I strongly believe in Indian supremacy, like when it comes to developers. Like I strongly believe in Indian supremacy, like when it comes to developers, like my time in India was phenomenal. All I saw was entrepreneurs, all I saw was founders. Because of these differences, by the way, because, like you can literally create like a SaaS solution, like it's not even have to be a Web3 solution. You can create the SaaS solution and have like 500 or like $600 monthly recurring revenue and that is, you know, three times the minimum wage.

Speaker 2: 41:03

And you know you don't have to work that hard, right? So I strongly believe that India, turkey and Middle Eastern region, as well as North Africa, is going to be leading these developer initiatives globally if the opportunity arises. Were in um, like smaller countries in asia, such as like like I, I had a, I did like a hacker house and an event like an irl beat up in thailand, and that that wasn't. That wasn't good because of the cultural differences. That thai people um, um, they um. You know they value the um, the happiness that they get from life. That's a different way of looking at life.

Speaker 2: 41:54

But you want to have this blindly hungry developer who's willing to work 24 hours a day to make their dreams come true. So that's the mindset that I got from Indian and Turkish developers since I started, you know, working in Web3. And also, you know that's one of the things right, like, us developers are, you know, the biggest developer market in the world right now. And that's like that's not because they are really hungry, that's because of the culture as well, like the hustle culture and the fact that you can literally raise, you know, multiple millions of dollars with something that can that might not raise that much in other countries With one slide.

Speaker 1: 42:48

Sorry, with one slide, and yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2: 42:55

Half of an elevator pitch. Or you can be, you know, uh like an ex-open ai employee and raise you know 100 million dollars, uh, with you know no product whatsoever, and that can only happen in usa. So, um, that's not going to happen in india. Um, I mean, I I saw a couple you know examples of that, but it's only a couple. So, yeah, like India is, I think, is the most up and coming developer market and they have the hungriest developers that will create the best products moving forward, I think there has been a lot of prejudice for you know prejudice on these Indian developers and I mean we can all guess why because of the social prejudice system of this world. So I think Polygon really tackled that and after Polygon, we have a lot of you know protocols being built, such as like Sopra or Diamante, or, you know we have a lot of you know projects coming from India. So I think we're not. I think a lot of blockchains, I think most blockchains.

Speaker 1: 44:19

I think most blockchains, at least the smart ones, are going to try to dominate India moving forward and try to take Polygon out of its throne. Yeah, I mean so many interesting insights here. I also want to talk a little bit about your own projects before we wrap it up, but I do also have one more question um, sort of like, broadly speaking, the people coming in there because it also goes back to your story right Like, and I think a lot of cultures in the world sorry, not cultures at all A lot of people in the, in these regions that you mentioned, just like yourself with this huge avalanche airdrop, are like first, they gain an interest often not always, but often because there's like this weird amount of money to be made right In this space and these odd economic opportunities. Do you find that that kind of hinders development because people are are kind of economically motivated rather than by, let's say, the ideals of decentralization or whatever else we might promote as the ethos of Web3? Is that something that you think is, I don't know, somehow harmful?

Speaker 1: 45:25

Is that even a development that you would kind of say exists? Is it a lot of people that come in for economic reasons and then stay for opportunities that are also economical? Or is there also this sort of idealistic understanding of like oh I'm building in Web3 because it has this revolutionary infrastructure that perhaps gives me independence from my local government's resistance to inflation? All of these things that might, you know, still touch on economic factors but have broader implications? How do you find this sort of like economic gateway drug? Does it exist, does it not exist? And if it does exist, is it helpful, is it harmful for the development of the people you've worked with?

Speaker 2: 46:11

I think it depends on what kind of of the people you've worked with. I think it depends on the uh, what kind of development there is. Um, if you are building like a, if you want to build a consumer debt or something like, if you want to build something that will, that you want to attract people for, then you, you are basically trying to build a business and that business can be built upon. You know, economic motivations. I don't think that's, I don't think that's a problem. I think economic motivations are obviously one of the biggest motivations in the space, but I don't think that's harmful as long as you don't, you know, sacrifice the value you have in yourself. You don't have to believe, you don't have to be a cyberpunk is what I'm saying? Like you don't have to say, you know, fuck the police coming straight from the underground or something, and like great more power to you. If you are Like I believe in you and I agree with you, but uh, there's, like I don't think it's, I don't think it slows down the development. And I also think that if you don't believe in decentralization, if you don't believe in, uh, censorship, resistant technologies, then uh, it doesn't matter if you have, like, an economic motivation or not, you're not going to succeed in this space because of the simple fact that we all share the same value, and that is censorship. Resistant technologies are good. That may not be your first priority, but it should be in the list of your values, is what I'm saying. Or just use AWS and move forward first priority, but it should be in the list of your values, is what I'm saying. Or just use AWS and move forward and just launch on App Store or Product Hunt or something.

Speaker 2: 48:08

And if you don't believe in decentralization, then you're not going to be able to learn from your mistakes and benefit from the opportunities that this space can bring. You know upon you, basically. But let's, let's imagine that someone has, you know, economic motivation in their first uh, like top of the list, and the second one would be, you know, decentralization. Uh, I think that's ideal, like uh. Or or the vice versa, like, as long as these two are in the top two, uh, you know, as long as you don't, um, you know, um, think negatively about the other thing. Then I think, uh, you know, it's not gonna, it's not, it's not, it's not gonna affect negatively on anything.

Speaker 1: 48:53

Yeah, interesting. I'm always curious about this sort of like meme coins as a gateway drug for actual users, because that's always a narrative that we hear. But I want to move on from there and talk about you. For the last little bit of this, you mentioned the extractor which doesn't extract. It actually bridges solidity to Rust, so you can build easily as an ETH developer on Multiverse X. What kind of products? This is one I'm pretty sure you at least applied for one more grant with a different project, and I know you have your hands in quite a few other projects, Like what kind of building are you interested in at the moment? What problems are you looking at in terms of solving? I mean, the one example is a very, let's say, developer specific problem Like what are you interested in building and what are you building at the moment problem?

Speaker 2: 49:52

like, what are you interested in building, and what are you building at the moment? Yeah, uh, the the things that I I'm interested in, the problems of developers and these, those problems being easily solvable and you know, um like this idea of this project. By the way, I'm sorry if I'm talking too much, it's just you. You know, I can talk hours on this, by the way. Thank you.

Speaker 1: 50:12

You're a lawyer, so I mean.

Speaker 2: 50:14

I expected nothing less of you, let's make this two hours, yeah, so like just going to give you a quick story of like, how did I come up with that problem? How did I come up with that project? In Bangkok, in that particular hacker house, and all of the organizers, like my friends, were going to their hotels because it was late, but it was going to be it should have been like a 36 hours nonstop hacker house. So I was like you know, I'm just going to stay right here, I don't want to go to bed. I like this city, it's a great environment to be in and I like to be around hackers with a thirst for building. Basically, it was exhilarating. So what I did was I couldn't sleep and I thought about developers and how to make their lives easier. And and then I was also in Twitter looking into other multiracex accounts, what they are thinking of, what they are talking about, and I realized that there are, at max at any given time, according to Electric Capital, there are 25,000 Web3 developers in the world, and only I don't know if it's the exact number, but only 9,000 of them are Rust developers, and I'm just thinking about how an average Rust developer is not that great, and if that is the case, then 4,500 of them are not going to be that good. So it leaves us with 4,500 good Rust developers ready to build on these 300 different, you know, WASM-based blockchains. So I decided to like.

Speaker 2: 52:01

I thought to myself hey, this is not sustainable, this cannot happen. And I know the solution and I have the time, I have my MacBook, I have enough time, you know, until until the sunrise. Uh, let me find the solution. And like I like. And at that time by the way, it was november 2024 I didn't know about the growth games. I just wanted to build. And when the growth games were announced, I was like, hey, I can hire people to do this. No one have to code, have to code by myself. I can have friends.

Speaker 2: 52:35

So that was when I decided to enhance this developer experience, because this thought should be thought about in 2020, 2021 or something. Hey, we are doing this Rust support, but maybe it's, maybe we can, you know, uh, maybe we can cater to the evm developers as well. You know, that's a crazy idea. What do you guys think? Like? Um, that that should be uh, talked about? Basically, uh, in these rust-based uh blockchains, I think.

Speaker 2: 53:09

I think it's about time we abstracted all the programming languages in all blockchains, so that we can have one true wide coding assistant to write all of our code. The space is talking about abstracting chains, but why not abstract the programming languages itself with tools like extracts, transpilers, compilers, just to make developers' lives easier? And then I created this POC. I posted it one or two times on my Twitter and I decided to apply to the growth games when it was announced, and since then our team is still building and I'm still worrying about those developers. And and right now, I'm right now worrying about move developers not being able to build on multiverse x, but then I think that's for another space yeah, I mean one thing you touched on earlier and and you just mentioned again.

Speaker 1: 54:08

I just want to sort of get your take on is and and also know whether you use it. Is vibe coding right, like this idea that we now have AI that is so capable that it can, you know, help me who doesn't know anything except, like, how to code Pong and Python? I mean, this was years ago, I don't. I'm not sure it would take me a minute to catch back up to that. Even so, even I could probably build a basic blockchain game now with little help and in little to no time. But, of course, for developers who actually know what they're doing, ais have become extremely powerful tools. So maybe your take on vibe coding and how that kind of changes the game or the onboarding experience, how it might expand the market, you know, for Verizon and accelerate, you know, your personal and professional growth and business opportunities there.

Speaker 2: 55:12

Yeah, I have a rule of thumb about this. Like I don't know if it applies, like it sounds, like it applies to the modern art as well. If you can, if you are able to draw this exact duct, then you have the right to make it as abstract as possible, right, and that's the same thing with vibe coding as well. I think, if you can write the code yourself but don't feel like to tracked as possible, right, and that's the same thing with, uh, vibe coding as well. I think, um, if you can write the code yourself but don't feel like to, uh, then you, then you can, obviously, you know, uh, try about vibe coding and just make things, uh, you know, from scratch.

Speaker 2: 55:46

But the thing is, uh, web three is not about, you know, um, these quick mobile games. It's decentralized finance and if there's finance involved, then you have to be extra careful. You don't have, like, it's the, what is it? The auditing sector is a billion-dollar sector, and that's because of a reason because people make mistakes and AI makes more mixed, more mistakes. So I would say, if you, if you can write your own code but don't want to, please, you know, give wipe coding a shot, and if you are writing your own, like smart contract on chain, then please use external third-party auditing services, because paying 100K to an auditing service is cheaper than being rugged with millions of dollars. Basically Because I don't believe vibe coding is that advanced when it comes to smart contract security. But other than that, it's fine. You don't have to write your own CSS, just make the AI write it. They're going to be our overlords in like three or four years.

Speaker 1: 57:04

So until then, just use them as much as possible, make friends with them. You said you can never have enough friends in this space, right? So make sure. Part of those are agent armies and swarms and what else is coming um each time, make sure to stay pleased to the ai models well, um, we've reached an hour, but maybe let's let's talk a little bit about the future.

Speaker 1: 57:26

We just mentioned ai. Um, we also have some things coming up, you know, obviously for for ry, ryzen and some other things. So what are you up to these days? What are you up to the next few months? Any fun plans, any events planned, perhaps? What's going on? What's next for you?

Speaker 2: 57:49

Yeah, there are a few things that I can mention. Yeah, like there are a few things that I can mention. One is at Verizon. We right now are enhancing our VC connections to bring more and more, you know, investments outside of that particular chain, into that chain through the projects that our builders you know built. And other than that, I can say we are right now trying to finalize, like an event in Istanbul, during Crossroads with, obviously, with Multiverse X, x Alliance and a couple of other partners, and like after that, like a like a day after that, I will go to Dubai during token 2049 to, you know, meet with more and more founders and more and more VCs to enhance network, to bring more opportunities. And after that I would love to go to, I would love to go backpacking through Eastern Europe and do random X Alliance meetups. Let's go, let's do it. Yeah, I have a plan to not be at home from June to August, but let's see how that goes.

Speaker 1: 59:07

You should come to Berlin for Berlin Blockchain Week as well. Oh nice.

Speaker 2: 59:14

I will definitely try to come by, if my visa clears. But after that, south Asia is awesome, indian developers, indian builders are awesome. I'm trying to meet face-to-face with people to basically be their friends, friends, to be their support and to help them get to where they want to go, because I feel like in these times, um, you know, if you, if you want to build, you can build it's a cumulative effect and it's not like the market is not that, um, dynamic, so it gives you like an advantage of building in silence, talking in silence and planning in silence.

Speaker 1: 1:00:01

so I'm just trying to, you know, uh, capitalize on that yeah, super interesting, I think, like so many, so many interesting takeaways, I think, also seeing builders or one of these takeaways being like there. It's still about community building and in a very, very, uh, substantial, substantial way, even, you know, going face to face. Still in this web 3 era and the the time of remote works and and like nomads, there's still communities that really thrive on knowing people, knowing each other personally, knowing each other deeply in some way to build cool stuff together. So I think, yeah, super, super helpful, super interesting to to hear from you. Thank you so much for your insights, khan.

Speaker 2: 1:00:48

Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I can talk on and on Like that's literally my job and my hobby. So yeah, if you want, and it's not necessarily 24 hours always but something like that could actually be interesting.

Speaker 1: 1:01:19

So I'll hit you up or maybe we'll just talk in person, because I'll see you in a week or so.

Speaker 2: 1:01:26

Yeah, ICP does that. By the way, In these local hubs on ICP, with over 20 hubs, they gather around every quarter to do these 24-hour town halls and they're doing great. Just to give you some insights.

Speaker 1: 1:01:43

Yeah, I love that this was episode 43. Already, ofios Horizons had the distinct pleasure of talking to Khan from Risen and of many, many talents and projects. Thank you all for listening. We'll talk to everybody and see everybody, hopefully in person, sometime very soon. For now, be well, build something and we'll talk and see you all very soon. Thank you very much. Have a good rest of your day, wherever you are.